concerning the "Proto/Proof/Experimental" Dials ....

Vintage Rolex Discussion

concerning the "Proto/Proof/Experimental" Dials ....

jatucka
VRF Member
jatucka
VRF Member
Joined: June 28th, 2007, 12:41 am

February 11th, 2010, 6:57 pm #1

hi guys

as i wrote in the 6542 White Dial Topic

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/m ... %26quot%3B


..........

it's very different from a Dial, NOT produced by Rolex itself, but produced by a Dial's Maker FOR Rolex.

as you well know there were several Dial's Makers FOR Rolex.

we all can see how many Dial's variants (versions) were made for the same reference during the years.

as you well know every year (2 years maybe) the Dial's Makers submitted to Rolex new Dial's Style, new "color proofs", new "graphics".

--------> you could not belive it, but sometimes some Dial's "Color Proof" where even made WITHOUT the watch manufacturer's name !

they were just "Color + Style Proof".

some of them were selected and "deliberated" by Rolex, some other were NOT.

some others were produced in very small runs (batches) for to test the market.

in almost 100 year were produced FOR Rolex, from different Dial's Makers, hundreds and hundreds of different Dials.

if we want to just TRY to reconstruct a Dial's history we should research and investigate inside the Dial Makers' Archive, not inside the Rolex Archive.

at least not always, at least not when we are talking about "small run" Dials.

maybe some traces could be found in the Rolex's Archive, maybe not.

expecially for that Dials that were never been "deliberated" for a massive, industrial production, but just for a "Market's Test" and/or for "small run" (batch).


...........


i will post now a Singer Dial's Sheet.

Dials made for Universal.

this Sheet comes from a Singer Folder, about 20 Sheets of Proof Dials.

i will post here "normal", banal dials.

in this Folder there are lot of Special, gorgeous and impressive Dials, but unfortunately i cannot post them here

the ones that i post here will show anyway what i'm trying to say.

as you will see, the Dials are just some "Style Tests", "Color Tests".

just some "Proof" Dials.

as you will see, some of them dont even have the Logo and/or the Universal name on.

some of them went in "Regular", massive Production.

some (maybe the most part) were not choosed, were not selected.

maybe some of them were produced in very small batches, just for to test the Market.

do you think that the Universal Archive (far better than the Rolex Archive! at least the Universal always reply to the Info Requests!!) still have traces of ALL of this Dials ?

and this is just ONE Sheet, from ONE 20 Sheets Folder, from One year !!

could you imagine how many Folders, how many Sheets, how many Dials in the story of a Dial's Maker ?

how many Proof, how many Tests, how many "small runs" of Dials .....

WOW, it is impressive just to think about it.

same story for Omega, for Rolex and for all the other Watches Manufacturer of the world.

one time i found EXACTELY THE SAME SINGER PROTO DIAL (it was a Chrono Dial) in an Omega Folder and in a Rolex Folder.

THE SAME !

one with the Rolex Logo, the other with the Omega Logo.

and the INCREDIBLE thing is that BOTH Manufacturers (Omega and Rolex) refused the Dial's Project !

both of them !

really incredible, becouse (belive me!) it was a GORGEOUS Chrono Dial !

now, just judge by yourself.

thanks for your attention.

thanks VRF


cheers from Italy.



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Joined: October 4th, 2006, 9:33 pm

February 11th, 2010, 8:06 pm #2

What is correct price for a Proto / Sample dial of Rolex??... Should it be mounted in a watch?
if yes, in what serialbatch of the reference? or should they be collected as coins, in drawers?

I ask this my friend because you mention serveral times many different sample dials have been
made on many different sheet for many years by serveral manufactures that delivered to Rolex.

With other words, how many of those Singer Folders are still around NOT yet found? Has Singer
for instance made only 1 folder a year or serveral folders to show to serveral clients a year, etc...

For global exception of Protodials we have to 'question' them more in detail to come to a degree
where logic rules a possible marketvalue instead of exotic emotion...

With other words, how do we know that not more Yachtmaster Daytona dials for instance are still around
to be discovered.... we are not looking for 1 watch or dial but for a whole folder full of dials so is
there any knowledge to you about production run?

&

In October of last year I meantioned to Stefano's Yachtmaster Daytona Proto dial presentation;

"We clearly see the different 'handmade' action for try out design
on the dial, indexes, colour, print outside & inside counters etc...

but we also see that it is not signed Swiss T<25 making it in my eyes a unofficial <br>
Rolex dial that could have been in a watch sold by Rolex but more probable it was
born in a catalogue of the dialmaker making it a ultra rare proto dial made FOR Rolex.
Therefor in collecting point of vieuw i think it's important to continue finetune
the definition of a proto and as Stefano is posting it here, it's up for discussion.
The more precise when can be in this the more a dial can be categorised and that is good
for you......and also for me "

&

from the same post:

"So a dial without SWISS is automaticly a Prototype dial?
a dial that has never been sold by Rolex in a watch as
we see tritium hands but no tritium on the dial......

Bizar to see in close up the non accurate printing & colours
we normally see on production dials. Did somebody tested the
Rolex crown on whitegold as we see it has been scratched??"




Rgrds.Philipp
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jatucka
VRF Member
jatucka
VRF Member
Joined: June 28th, 2007, 12:41 am

February 11th, 2010, 9:46 pm #3

my friend, i posted this Dial's Sheet referring to the 6542 White Dial

and referring to the possibility of to obtain a "Confirm Letter" from Rolex ......


BUT


i will try to reply to all your questions, even if they surprise me, becouse you do already KNOW a big part of the Story ...

so i will do it mostly for our VRF Friends


------


"What is correct price for a Proto / Sample dial of Rolex??"


i will give you my point of view.

it depends from the kind of Dial.

you saw by yourself a couple of Submariner Dials.

you saw in the Auro's Calendar some Chrono Dials, and some others of them will be seen in the Pucci's Book.

personally, i think that they are PRICELESS

they are ONE OF A KIND.

as you WELL know, there are NOT two Dials of the same style/color.

each one differs from the other ones, even in a little detail.

obviously a DJ Dial will worth (as the market rules ...) less than a Sub Dial.

and a Sub Dial will worth less than a Chrono Dial.

but (at least for me ....) to try to find a "Market Value" for this kind of Dials is an useless exercise.

for me it can be the maximum, for another collector can be a low value ....

it depends from the personal way to see, to feel, to assume the meaning of "to be a Collector".


------



"Should it be mounted in a watch?"


YES, if you want to.

the EXTREMELY important thing is what appens at the moment that you BUY it.

you BUY it as a PROTO Dial.

you know the WHOLE story of THAT Dial.

cleared up this point, it is up to you.

you want to mount it (and to gloat and to enjoy your ONE OF A KIND DIAL) ?

so go ahed, where is the problem ?

as you well know Pucci will publish the Dial's pics, not mounted

will be in the feeling of the owners to mount them.

if i would have one, i will mount it for sure


------


"in what serialbatch of the reference"


that's VERY EASY my friend, and you know why

we do know the year for sure.

dont you recognize a 5513 Dial ?



------



"many different sample dials have been made on many different sheet for many years by serveral manufactures that delivered to Rolex"


well my friend .....

as you (again) WELL know, in the Rolex Folder there were VERY VERY VERY FEW "IMPORTANT" Dials .......

lot of (beautifull) Date, or (beautifull) Precision, some (gorgeous) Datejust ....

BUT just an handfull Sub and (even less) Chrono Dials.

very very few of them.

also, this is the very first time that such a Folder comes out.

other Folders were set up in the years ?

SURE.

but WHERE ARE them now ???

have you ever seen something of similar before ?

maybe you will never see something of similar again in the life, who knows ....


------


"how do we know that not more Yachtmaster Daytona dials for instance are still around"

my friend, we saw TWO of them in a so loooooong time ......

nobody can read the future.

do you think that you will see the third one ?

mmmmm ........ could be.

but could be not.


------


"not signed Swiss T25 making it in my eyes a unofficial Rolex"



WHY my friend ??


i really dont see ANY connection between the Swiss T25 and the "officiality" of a Dial.

what do you think that can count the Swiss T25 in a Proto Dial ?

really dont understand this point !

this is one of the most famous, the most important, the most sought after Omega Speedmaster Dial.

it has NOT Swiss T25

so what ?

i asked the Extract in Omega, and they sent me a regular Extract as "Speedmaster Radial Dial"

unfortunately Rolex doesnt make Extract, but this is a Rolex problem, it is NOT an "officiality" problem ..... IMHO





------


"Bizar to see in close up the non accurate printing & colours we normally see on production dials"


my dear friend Philipp !

do you remember "that" 1019 Dial ??

what did i told you AFTER that i've had the chanche to see this Rolex Folder ???


a Proto Dial is a Proto Dial .....

maybe "inaccurate" ...... but SO RARE and FASHINATING ......

you should know it very well !


------



hope that i've replied to all the questions.


anyway, this will be a neverending story.

everybody has "his own way to feel" a Collection.


we do have the "instruments" for to check a Dial's Originality.

we just saw this with the 6542 White Dial.



cheers from Italy.
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BuyingAssistance
VRF Member
Joined: July 29th, 2007, 6:00 pm

February 12th, 2010, 12:56 am #4

Also it is funny to imagine how you would pronounce what you write.
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Joined: October 4th, 2006, 9:33 pm

February 12th, 2010, 1:23 am #5

my friend, i posted this Dial's Sheet referring to the 6542 White Dial

and referring to the possibility of to obtain a "Confirm Letter" from Rolex ......


BUT


i will try to reply to all your questions, even if they surprise me, becouse you do already KNOW a big part of the Story ...

so i will do it mostly for our VRF Friends


------


"What is correct price for a Proto / Sample dial of Rolex??"


i will give you my point of view.

it depends from the kind of Dial.

you saw by yourself a couple of Submariner Dials.

you saw in the Auro's Calendar some Chrono Dials, and some others of them will be seen in the Pucci's Book.

personally, i think that they are PRICELESS

they are ONE OF A KIND.

as you WELL know, there are NOT two Dials of the same style/color.

each one differs from the other ones, even in a little detail.

obviously a DJ Dial will worth (as the market rules ...) less than a Sub Dial.

and a Sub Dial will worth less than a Chrono Dial.

but (at least for me ....) to try to find a "Market Value" for this kind of Dials is an useless exercise.

for me it can be the maximum, for another collector can be a low value ....

it depends from the personal way to see, to feel, to assume the meaning of "to be a Collector".


------



"Should it be mounted in a watch?"


YES, if you want to.

the EXTREMELY important thing is what appens at the moment that you BUY it.

you BUY it as a PROTO Dial.

you know the WHOLE story of THAT Dial.

cleared up this point, it is up to you.

you want to mount it (and to gloat and to enjoy your ONE OF A KIND DIAL) ?

so go ahed, where is the problem ?

as you well know Pucci will publish the Dial's pics, not mounted

will be in the feeling of the owners to mount them.

if i would have one, i will mount it for sure


------


"in what serialbatch of the reference"


that's VERY EASY my friend, and you know why

we do know the year for sure.

dont you recognize a 5513 Dial ?



------



"many different sample dials have been made on many different sheet for many years by serveral manufactures that delivered to Rolex"


well my friend .....

as you (again) WELL know, in the Rolex Folder there were VERY VERY VERY FEW "IMPORTANT" Dials .......

lot of (beautifull) Date, or (beautifull) Precision, some (gorgeous) Datejust ....

BUT just an handfull Sub and (even less) Chrono Dials.

very very few of them.

also, this is the very first time that such a Folder comes out.

other Folders were set up in the years ?

SURE.

but WHERE ARE them now ???

have you ever seen something of similar before ?

maybe you will never see something of similar again in the life, who knows ....


------


"how do we know that not more Yachtmaster Daytona dials for instance are still around"

my friend, we saw TWO of them in a so loooooong time ......

nobody can read the future.

do you think that you will see the third one ?

mmmmm ........ could be.

but could be not.


------


"not signed Swiss T25 making it in my eyes a unofficial Rolex"



WHY my friend ??


i really dont see ANY connection between the Swiss T25 and the "officiality" of a Dial.

what do you think that can count the Swiss T25 in a Proto Dial ?

really dont understand this point !

this is one of the most famous, the most important, the most sought after Omega Speedmaster Dial.

it has NOT Swiss T25

so what ?

i asked the Extract in Omega, and they sent me a regular Extract as "Speedmaster Radial Dial"

unfortunately Rolex doesnt make Extract, but this is a Rolex problem, it is NOT an "officiality" problem ..... IMHO





------


"Bizar to see in close up the non accurate printing & colours we normally see on production dials"


my dear friend Philipp !

do you remember "that" 1019 Dial ??

what did i told you AFTER that i've had the chanche to see this Rolex Folder ???


a Proto Dial is a Proto Dial .....

maybe "inaccurate" ...... but SO RARE and FASHINATING ......

you should know it very well !


------



hope that i've replied to all the questions.


anyway, this will be a neverending story.

everybody has "his own way to feel" a Collection.


we do have the "instruments" for to check a Dial's Originality.

we just saw this with the 6542 White Dial.



cheers from Italy.
And yes now materie Proto dial is ready for VRF Archive...



rg.P
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 12th, 2010, 1:54 am #6



.
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Joined: March 2nd, 2008, 2:18 pm

February 12th, 2010, 3:36 am #7

And yes now materie Proto dial is ready for VRF Archive...



rg.P
Best regards
Orchi.
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Joined: March 2nd, 2008, 2:18 pm

February 12th, 2010, 3:44 am #8

hi guys

as i wrote in the 6542 White Dial Topic

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/m ... %26quot%3B


..........

it's very different from a Dial, NOT produced by Rolex itself, but produced by a Dial's Maker FOR Rolex.

as you well know there were several Dial's Makers FOR Rolex.

we all can see how many Dial's variants (versions) were made for the same reference during the years.

as you well know every year (2 years maybe) the Dial's Makers submitted to Rolex new Dial's Style, new "color proofs", new "graphics".

--------> you could not belive it, but sometimes some Dial's "Color Proof" where even made WITHOUT the watch manufacturer's name !

they were just "Color + Style Proof".

some of them were selected and "deliberated" by Rolex, some other were NOT.

some others were produced in very small runs (batches) for to test the market.

in almost 100 year were produced FOR Rolex, from different Dial's Makers, hundreds and hundreds of different Dials.

if we want to just TRY to reconstruct a Dial's history we should research and investigate inside the Dial Makers' Archive, not inside the Rolex Archive.

at least not always, at least not when we are talking about "small run" Dials.

maybe some traces could be found in the Rolex's Archive, maybe not.

expecially for that Dials that were never been "deliberated" for a massive, industrial production, but just for a "Market's Test" and/or for "small run" (batch).


...........


i will post now a Singer Dial's Sheet.

Dials made for Universal.

this Sheet comes from a Singer Folder, about 20 Sheets of Proof Dials.

i will post here "normal", banal dials.

in this Folder there are lot of Special, gorgeous and impressive Dials, but unfortunately i cannot post them here

the ones that i post here will show anyway what i'm trying to say.

as you will see, the Dials are just some "Style Tests", "Color Tests".

just some "Proof" Dials.

as you will see, some of them dont even have the Logo and/or the Universal name on.

some of them went in "Regular", massive Production.

some (maybe the most part) were not choosed, were not selected.

maybe some of them were produced in very small batches, just for to test the Market.

do you think that the Universal Archive (far better than the Rolex Archive! at least the Universal always reply to the Info Requests!!) still have traces of ALL of this Dials ?

and this is just ONE Sheet, from ONE 20 Sheets Folder, from One year !!

could you imagine how many Folders, how many Sheets, how many Dials in the story of a Dial's Maker ?

how many Proof, how many Tests, how many "small runs" of Dials .....

WOW, it is impressive just to think about it.

same story for Omega, for Rolex and for all the other Watches Manufacturer of the world.

one time i found EXACTELY THE SAME SINGER PROTO DIAL (it was a Chrono Dial) in an Omega Folder and in a Rolex Folder.

THE SAME !

one with the Rolex Logo, the other with the Omega Logo.

and the INCREDIBLE thing is that BOTH Manufacturers (Omega and Rolex) refused the Dial's Project !

both of them !

really incredible, becouse (belive me!) it was a GORGEOUS Chrono Dial !

now, just judge by yourself.

thanks for your attention.

thanks VRF


cheers from Italy.



Err...Orchi suspects that those makers of fake...
or redone Dials...do have their own versions of "Proto" Dials...
on trial n error...basis.

So Orchi needs to be very careful...

Best regards
Orchi.
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Greatgatsby
VRF Member
Joined: September 8th, 2003, 7:26 am

February 12th, 2010, 8:48 am #9

my friend, i posted this Dial's Sheet referring to the 6542 White Dial

and referring to the possibility of to obtain a "Confirm Letter" from Rolex ......


BUT


i will try to reply to all your questions, even if they surprise me, becouse you do already KNOW a big part of the Story ...

so i will do it mostly for our VRF Friends


------


"What is correct price for a Proto / Sample dial of Rolex??"


i will give you my point of view.

it depends from the kind of Dial.

you saw by yourself a couple of Submariner Dials.

you saw in the Auro's Calendar some Chrono Dials, and some others of them will be seen in the Pucci's Book.

personally, i think that they are PRICELESS

they are ONE OF A KIND.

as you WELL know, there are NOT two Dials of the same style/color.

each one differs from the other ones, even in a little detail.

obviously a DJ Dial will worth (as the market rules ...) less than a Sub Dial.

and a Sub Dial will worth less than a Chrono Dial.

but (at least for me ....) to try to find a "Market Value" for this kind of Dials is an useless exercise.

for me it can be the maximum, for another collector can be a low value ....

it depends from the personal way to see, to feel, to assume the meaning of "to be a Collector".


------



"Should it be mounted in a watch?"


YES, if you want to.

the EXTREMELY important thing is what appens at the moment that you BUY it.

you BUY it as a PROTO Dial.

you know the WHOLE story of THAT Dial.

cleared up this point, it is up to you.

you want to mount it (and to gloat and to enjoy your ONE OF A KIND DIAL) ?

so go ahed, where is the problem ?

as you well know Pucci will publish the Dial's pics, not mounted

will be in the feeling of the owners to mount them.

if i would have one, i will mount it for sure


------


"in what serialbatch of the reference"


that's VERY EASY my friend, and you know why

we do know the year for sure.

dont you recognize a 5513 Dial ?



------



"many different sample dials have been made on many different sheet for many years by serveral manufactures that delivered to Rolex"


well my friend .....

as you (again) WELL know, in the Rolex Folder there were VERY VERY VERY FEW "IMPORTANT" Dials .......

lot of (beautifull) Date, or (beautifull) Precision, some (gorgeous) Datejust ....

BUT just an handfull Sub and (even less) Chrono Dials.

very very few of them.

also, this is the very first time that such a Folder comes out.

other Folders were set up in the years ?

SURE.

but WHERE ARE them now ???

have you ever seen something of similar before ?

maybe you will never see something of similar again in the life, who knows ....


------


"how do we know that not more Yachtmaster Daytona dials for instance are still around"

my friend, we saw TWO of them in a so loooooong time ......

nobody can read the future.

do you think that you will see the third one ?

mmmmm ........ could be.

but could be not.


------


"not signed Swiss T25 making it in my eyes a unofficial Rolex"



WHY my friend ??


i really dont see ANY connection between the Swiss T25 and the "officiality" of a Dial.

what do you think that can count the Swiss T25 in a Proto Dial ?

really dont understand this point !

this is one of the most famous, the most important, the most sought after Omega Speedmaster Dial.

it has NOT Swiss T25

so what ?

i asked the Extract in Omega, and they sent me a regular Extract as "Speedmaster Radial Dial"

unfortunately Rolex doesnt make Extract, but this is a Rolex problem, it is NOT an "officiality" problem ..... IMHO





------


"Bizar to see in close up the non accurate printing & colours we normally see on production dials"


my dear friend Philipp !

do you remember "that" 1019 Dial ??

what did i told you AFTER that i've had the chanche to see this Rolex Folder ???


a Proto Dial is a Proto Dial .....

maybe "inaccurate" ...... but SO RARE and FASHINATING ......

you should know it very well !


------



hope that i've replied to all the questions.


anyway, this will be a neverending story.

everybody has "his own way to feel" a Collection.


we do have the "instruments" for to check a Dial's Originality.

we just saw this with the 6542 White Dial.



cheers from Italy.
Fantastic Thread -- I agree totally with your statements, very well said !!

THANKS for sharing, my friend !!
Best to you
Werner
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jatucka
VRF Member
jatucka
VRF Member
Joined: June 28th, 2007, 12:41 am

February 12th, 2010, 12:35 pm #10

Err...Orchi suspects that those makers of fake...
or redone Dials...do have their own versions of "Proto" Dials...
on trial n error...basis.

So Orchi needs to be very careful...

Best regards
Orchi.
buddy Orchi ...

fakes or redone dials are different stuff ....





cheers from Italy.
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