about the "fake 5512" just posted by Ralle...

Vintage Rolex Discussion

about the "fake 5512" just posted by Ralle...

Joined: January 28th, 2005, 9:45 am

October 20th, 2011, 9:50 am #1

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/m ... h+5512+PCG

just a few words as pictures are allways better than words :
1) case number between the lugs : from the picture it's almost impossible to see anything ;
2) reference number between the lugs :
-- the font of the number "1" in "5512" is not correct and different from the genuine ones of the same period in my records ; also the fonts of the other
numbers are very close but still with some small differences ;
3) if you look at the shoulders of the "fake" case .. you will see that they have been polished to make them look like genuine point guards ones .. but
they still keep their original size and look of rounded shoulders.
as the inside of the case of a 5512/3 with round shoulders is narrower than a 5512/3 with sharp ones .. this explains why there is no gap if you put a dial made for 5512 PCG
in a later case with round shoulders : if you check with a 10X loupe in this case you see that most of the word SWISS is hidden in the rehaut.
so not a fake case but nevertheless a counterfeit watch.





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Joined: April 3rd, 2010, 10:54 am

October 20th, 2011, 10:47 am #2

Mr. Marcello, thank you for your insight.

so you are saying this is original 5512 case of different period but polished to resemble pointed case? How about the font difference? Does it still make it an original rolex case? Long E's?
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Joined: January 28th, 2005, 9:45 am

October 20th, 2011, 10:54 am #3

a "touched" case like this one ( with reference and case numbers re-engraved ) is in any case a counterfeit stuff : the case is original ( in the sense that is a case made by Rolex ) but the watch itself is not original anymore ...
this obviously changes a lot the value and the collectability ...
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Joined: July 9th, 2011, 9:36 am

October 20th, 2011, 11:25 am #4

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/m ... h+5512+PCG

just a few words as pictures are allways better than words :
1) case number between the lugs : from the picture it's almost impossible to see anything ;
2) reference number between the lugs :
-- the font of the number "1" in "5512" is not correct and different from the genuine ones of the same period in my records ; also the fonts of the other
numbers are very close but still with some small differences ;
3) if you look at the shoulders of the "fake" case .. you will see that they have been polished to make them look like genuine point guards ones .. but
they still keep their original size and look of rounded shoulders.
as the inside of the case of a 5512/3 with round shoulders is narrower than a 5512/3 with sharp ones .. this explains why there is no gap if you put a dial made for 5512 PCG
in a later case with round shoulders : if you check with a 10X loupe in this case you see that most of the word SWISS is hidden in the rehaut.
so not a fake case but nevertheless a counterfeit watch.





Thanks for posting Marci, but when I see your pics I just realise that
people that are having access to these kinds of detailed informations are les than
5% of collectors.
This is also frightening because even someone like me that has been doing this since
more than 20 years will not go anymore thru the hassle to dismantle a 5512 to verify if every thing
is right.
Even something I think I know well (vintage hands) the new generation of aftermarket are
so well made that it takes me longer and longer to differenciate right from wrong.

Let me tell you a story, a retired watchmaker from Rolex RSC wanted the get a part time job
as his pension was not enough for him and familly. On my advice hee visited the 4 or 5
largest vintage dealers in Paris and got a 3 days trial. What he told me again was beyond frightening
as he saw 5512, 5513, red Sub dials that were just perfect. To his (and my) surprise the dials came from Japan and not some other
asian countries we are used to hear when speaking about aftermarket dials. So, after the second day he left
the dealser and is now working at Wempe on modern watches. (sorry if I already posted that story but Alzheimer is not far).

Personally I'm too old or too tired to go to auction with my books, Ipad, jack, screw driver or my
allen wrench to verify a watch (and I dont have good enough visual memory to check in 10th of mm the size of the top bar of a 5 in 5512 and stuff like that).
I dont either feel like buying a scanning electron microscope to be sure of what I just bought, when coming home.
Maybe that is why the few last watches I bought from Rolex where new or very old, a field that has not been to much affected till now.
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Joined: August 18th, 2003, 8:42 am

October 20th, 2011, 11:30 am #5

If I was doing 5512/5513/1680/1675 sales all day long, i'd go nuts. Some of these details are very very minute. 99.9% of the time, they "feel" wrong, but I have more or less stopped authenticating watches (same with tudor) by email. Because what you see in real life, is obviously fake, but in 2 dimensinal pictures, the fakes are getting really good.

Luckily the field I work in now, fakes are not a major parameter.

Cheers

M

http://www.tudorcollector.com
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Joined: July 9th, 2011, 9:36 am

October 20th, 2011, 11:44 am #6

you know how it is during auctions, 3 guys behind you waiting to see the watch
you have in hands, the commotion, the constant hustle might make you take the wrong
decision because you felt noticing the tiny error in the "5.
Or, worse... maybe that second five different from the fist one is legit "becausewithRolexanythingispossible".
Once again a bit to much headache for me...

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Joined: August 18th, 2003, 8:42 am

October 20th, 2011, 11:46 am #7

Same goes for the watch shows. Bread and butter pieces like 1803, datejusts and older chronos like you prefer - are much easier these days.

And if you want something super nice, theres always this:



)

m

http://www.tudorcollector.com
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Joined: February 25th, 2010, 10:30 pm

October 20th, 2011, 11:59 am #8

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/m ... h+5512+PCG

just a few words as pictures are allways better than words :
1) case number between the lugs : from the picture it's almost impossible to see anything ;
2) reference number between the lugs :
-- the font of the number "1" in "5512" is not correct and different from the genuine ones of the same period in my records ; also the fonts of the other
numbers are very close but still with some small differences ;
3) if you look at the shoulders of the "fake" case .. you will see that they have been polished to make them look like genuine point guards ones .. but
they still keep their original size and look of rounded shoulders.
as the inside of the case of a 5512/3 with round shoulders is narrower than a 5512/3 with sharp ones .. this explains why there is no gap if you put a dial made for 5512 PCG
in a later case with round shoulders : if you check with a 10X loupe in this case you see that most of the word SWISS is hidden in the rehaut.
so not a fake case but nevertheless a counterfeit watch.





I had the misfortune to buy this watch and raised my suspicions right away with Ralf about the case. Ralf has been a true professional in dealing with it though- big respect Ralle!!

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Cheers,

Nick.
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Joined: September 8th, 2003, 7:26 am

October 20th, 2011, 12:02 pm #9

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/m ... h+5512+PCG

just a few words as pictures are allways better than words :
1) case number between the lugs : from the picture it's almost impossible to see anything ;
2) reference number between the lugs :
-- the font of the number "1" in "5512" is not correct and different from the genuine ones of the same period in my records ; also the fonts of the other
numbers are very close but still with some small differences ;
3) if you look at the shoulders of the "fake" case .. you will see that they have been polished to make them look like genuine point guards ones .. but
they still keep their original size and look of rounded shoulders.
as the inside of the case of a 5512/3 with round shoulders is narrower than a 5512/3 with sharp ones .. this explains why there is no gap if you put a dial made for 5512 PCG
in a later case with round shoulders : if you check with a 10X loupe in this case you see that most of the word SWISS is hidden in the rehaut.
so not a fake case but nevertheless a counterfeit watch.





Fantastic work like always. One thing: for me, the engraving of the Reference 5512 is totally wrong - and we cannot see on the photo, but i bet the serial engraving is same wrong !

So, yes, it is a new engraved later 5512 or 5513 case, or even a totally Fake case -- but with this wrong kind of engraving, I am sure lots of collectors would have a bad feeling about and won't buy it.

BEST!
Werner

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Joined: September 8th, 2003, 7:26 am

October 20th, 2011, 12:03 pm #10

I had the misfortune to buy this watch and raised my suspicions right away with Ralf about the case. Ralf has been a true professional in dealing with it though- big respect Ralle!!

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

Cheers,

Nick.
I postet too fast -- like i thought, the serial is same bad engraved like the reference number !
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