Joined: January 17th, 2006, 5:05 pm

October 19th, 2011, 10:57 am #31

For me- it IS about the watch AND the papers :-))
that brings the money. goodies are just that, they enhance the watch.
As I said, I will not stop buying or selling full sets, or just watches with papers because someone caught a dealer doing stuff many greedy dishonest dealers/collectors do.
we do not shift gears so easily...
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Joined: May 8th, 2010, 10:02 pm

October 19th, 2011, 12:47 pm #32

I am saying that the 3 musketeers that sell full sets on ebay do not currently have the tools to punch 6 holes. As a result, they sell very few 6 hole sets and 95% 5 hole sets. The 6 hole sets they sell are either real or they re-stamp the watch cases to match the certs.

If they cant punch 6 holes (yet) then there is no other conclusion to be drawn from their full set auctions with 6 hole certs.
Re-stamped cases. Please provide information and pictures please.
That seems too risky to re-stamp a case to match a piece of paper. Recently saw a questionable case stamp on a 1680 but not being sold from this group.
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Joined: January 17th, 2006, 5:05 pm

October 19th, 2011, 2:12 pm #33

thus allowing the counterfeiters to build a better mousetrap. I buy and sell watches, and have seen plenty of craziness over the last 15 years.
I will however inform other dealers and people I know, as a courtesy, but I barely have time to post pictures of stuff I am selling, let alone get into one of these long and winding threads about 4 holes vs. 5 holes vs. 6 holes.
study what you own and compare to what you want to buy. do not rely on others to do the research, that is what this is all about.
know your seller, do your homework. that is how we did it before the internet. the vrf has enormous photo archives for comparison.

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Joined: October 13th, 2003, 5:24 pm

October 19th, 2011, 2:28 pm #34

just the papers...again papers are an accessory in my opinion..And with by not paying a fortune for the papers, with the premise to cover one's purchase.
A

http://rolexnessreviews.blogspot.com/
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Joined: May 7th, 2006, 5:02 pm

October 19th, 2011, 2:37 pm #35

Kinda crazy that a first time poster has no return email address and his ip happens to trace back to the same neighborhood as the 3 amigos.

Makes me wonder Terry, are you one of them.....
...I appreciate your initial thrust in this matter--it was well done and well thought out.
BUT...
-Now now in your zeal to catch wrongdoers you are accusing anyone from Southern California of being in a counterfeiting ring based on nothing more than an IP address. You do realize that SoCal is one of the most heavily populated places in the USA, right? So there are bound to be more than a few members of this community who hail from there who will probably not appreciate being accused of being collaborators with the enemy just for stating their opinion even if it doesn't agree with yours.

-As well as making hasty and unfounded allegations, you are adding names to the list of "enemies" with no real proof that I can see. If you have some further concrete evidence, please provide it in advance of hurling accusations.

-And you are clearly not respecting the informed opinions of gentleman who have decades of experience in this hobby, vis a vis there are bloody 5-hole punched period papers that are legitimate and original and they originated from the US market. End of story.

My advice would be: Step away from the keyboard for a few hours/days and get your facts lined up if you are going to continue to post on this matter. Shared geography is not proof of anything. And the people around here who know what they're talking about (and if you had been around long enough, you'd know who they are) deserve to have their knowledge respected when they present it for our benefit.
Regards,
T.

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Joined: January 17th, 2006, 5:05 pm

October 19th, 2011, 2:47 pm #36

Most 5 hole USA papers have no dealer stamp and no date.
How can one realistically determine if they were punched by a Rolex ad, or a guy with a punch device?
I have five sets of papers I bought in 1999, that came in a box of other Rolex related crap, from some guy at NAWCC, chapter 1 Philly show that look exactly like the ones punched after the fact.
I guess we will now start examining holes? Hanging Chad? Lol!
Get real, you cannot tell.
Everyone needs to take this in stride and be careful, but to go on a mission, looking to prove anything other than it is impossible to know for sure is an effort in futility and waste of time.
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Joined: May 24th, 2011, 1:31 am

October 19th, 2011, 2:52 pm #37

...I appreciate your initial thrust in this matter--it was well done and well thought out.
BUT...
-Now now in your zeal to catch wrongdoers you are accusing anyone from Southern California of being in a counterfeiting ring based on nothing more than an IP address. You do realize that SoCal is one of the most heavily populated places in the USA, right? So there are bound to be more than a few members of this community who hail from there who will probably not appreciate being accused of being collaborators with the enemy just for stating their opinion even if it doesn't agree with yours.

-As well as making hasty and unfounded allegations, you are adding names to the list of "enemies" with no real proof that I can see. If you have some further concrete evidence, please provide it in advance of hurling accusations.

-And you are clearly not respecting the informed opinions of gentleman who have decades of experience in this hobby, vis a vis there are bloody 5-hole punched period papers that are legitimate and original and they originated from the US market. End of story.

My advice would be: Step away from the keyboard for a few hours/days and get your facts lined up if you are going to continue to post on this matter. Shared geography is not proof of anything. And the people around here who know what they're talking about (and if you had been around long enough, you'd know who they are) deserve to have their knowledge respected when they present it for our benefit.
Regards,
T.
Who do you think you are talking down to me? Are you kidding me? Was I talking to you or even addressing you in my thread? Mind your own business. Telling me to back away from my keyboard..are you high?

I did not accuse the aforementioned poster of anything. I found it odd that:

1. He questioned my knowledge based on a thread about a dial
2. He posted with no email to verify his identity
3. He posted from an ip address in the exact neighborhood of the alleged 3 amigos
4. He has never posted on this forum ever before. AKA. A driveby poster.


So, keep your conspiracy theories to yourself, no one wants to hear them, myself included.

AND, you are part of the so called "old regime" who are the ones responsible for this entire mess.
If it wasnt for us new guys, the old regime would continue with business as usually, duping the innocent.

I dont see any forum members feeling accused because they are Southern California, why do you speak for them when you dont even live there?
I have not mentioned any additional names to this list of wrongdoers, I dont know what you are talking about.

Once again Tom, READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. I never said 5 hole punched certs dont exist so, please re read my posts before accusing me of ignorance.

And as far as the old timers with decades of experience is concerned...

If you and the old folks had a clue then you would have known that these guys were falsely punching certs. Why did it take a "new guy"
to figure it out in a matter of months? So, much for your wealth of knowledge and experience. What the hell were you doing for the last 5 years
while these guys were making MILLIONS on ebay selling fake certs? Looking at lovely dial patina?
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Joined: May 8th, 2010, 10:02 pm

October 19th, 2011, 3:01 pm #38

thus allowing the counterfeiters to build a better mousetrap. I buy and sell watches, and have seen plenty of craziness over the last 15 years.
I will however inform other dealers and people I know, as a courtesy, but I barely have time to post pictures of stuff I am selling, let alone get into one of these long and winding threads about 4 holes vs. 5 holes vs. 6 holes.
study what you own and compare to what you want to buy. do not rely on others to do the research, that is what this is all about.
know your seller, do your homework. that is how we did it before the internet. the vrf has enormous photo archives for comparison.

Not asking for what one looks like, there is an allegation that a case has been re-stamped to match papers, not talking about a fake case here.. And your alter ego shows up to agree.. and were is your critique? I am in no way asking you to educate me.
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Joined: May 24th, 2011, 1:31 am

October 19th, 2011, 3:08 pm #39

Most 5 hole USA papers have no dealer stamp and no date.
How can one realistically determine if they were punched by a Rolex ad, or a guy with a punch device?
I have five sets of papers I bought in 1999, that came in a box of other Rolex related crap, from some guy at NAWCC, chapter 1 Philly show that look exactly like the ones punched after the fact.
I guess we will now start examining holes? Hanging Chad? Lol!
Get real, you cannot tell.
Everyone needs to take this in stride and be careful, but to go on a mission, looking to prove anything other than it is impossible to know for sure is an effort in futility and waste of time.
If everyone took your approach then this entire issue would be swept under the rug forever. Exactly what the 3 amigos would love.

I dont know why you (an old timer) and tomvox (an old timer) are so hasty to support most of the 5 dot certs as genuine, and incorrectly
assume that the USA 5 dot certs "mostly do not" have dealer stamps or dates. Why is that? Did USA dealers not have the money to afford
a stamp or pen to write down a date or the common sense to punch a certificate? That is preposterous and ridiculous with absolutely
no factual support. ALL certs from ALL countries SHOULD be dated and stamped, to assume that the USA ones mostly werent is not only
inaccurate but, ignorant.

What makes this so horrible is that by merely stating this inaccuracy, you are supporting the very certs that are 5 hole, unstamped
and undated. The very ones the "old timer" 3 amigos have been proven to be faking are now given authentication by guess who..2 "old timers".

"It is impossible to know for sure" That one upsets me the most. It IS possible to know for sure if we all put our brains together and
use our resources and common sense. I must have had 50 emails from people telling me stories about these guys.

I will tell you what I tell them..I dont need any proof to know what they are doing I KNOW what they are doing and no old timer or
hobbyist with decades of knowledge is gonna convince me otherwise.

PS: The 5 hole certs the 3 amigos are punching arent even from the US, they are from Europe and written in French, so all of this support
is for naught. No one has proven anything conclusive regarding the long cert European versions EVER having 5 holes, yeat all of the 3 amigos
punches are these exact certs.

Now what you gotta say?
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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 9:30 pm

October 19th, 2011, 3:12 pm #40

Who do you think you are talking down to me? Are you kidding me? Was I talking to you or even addressing you in my thread? Mind your own business. Telling me to back away from my keyboard..are you high?

I did not accuse the aforementioned poster of anything. I found it odd that:

1. He questioned my knowledge based on a thread about a dial
2. He posted with no email to verify his identity
3. He posted from an ip address in the exact neighborhood of the alleged 3 amigos
4. He has never posted on this forum ever before. AKA. A driveby poster.


So, keep your conspiracy theories to yourself, no one wants to hear them, myself included.

AND, you are part of the so called "old regime" who are the ones responsible for this entire mess.
If it wasnt for us new guys, the old regime would continue with business as usually, duping the innocent.

I dont see any forum members feeling accused because they are Southern California, why do you speak for them when you dont even live there?
I have not mentioned any additional names to this list of wrongdoers, I dont know what you are talking about.

Once again Tom, READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. I never said 5 hole punched certs dont exist so, please re read my posts before accusing me of ignorance.

And as far as the old timers with decades of experience is concerned...

If you and the old folks had a clue then you would have known that these guys were falsely punching certs. Why did it take a "new guy"
to figure it out in a matter of months? So, much for your wealth of knowledge and experience. What the hell were you doing for the last 5 years
while these guys were making MILLIONS on ebay selling fake certs? Looking at lovely dial patina?
seriously, who are you?

---Perpetual Knowledge---
-Perpetual Knowledge-
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