investing stocks count as work or not

investing stocks count as work or not

nick2369
.
.
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 16:57

08 Nov 2017, 01:35 #1

just stupid question. for 100% p&t mental disorder i don't go out i don't work. but can i use my computer to investing stocks if i made money from this does it count as work?is this income gonna affect my rating for future?i was reading some post here some people said work gonna affect va rating i understand but i just don't know this is count as work or not?sorry for this stupid question
Reply

Gade757
.
.
Joined: 06 Sep 2017, 04:33

08 Nov 2017, 01:38 #2

nick2369 wrote:just stupid question. for 100% p&t mental disorder i don't go out i don't work. but can i use my computer to investing stocks if i made money from this does it count as work?is this income gonna affect my rating for future?i was reading some post here some people said work gonna affect va rating i understand but i just don't know this is count as work or not?sorry for this stupid question
No it doesnt count ,i think theres a forum about it

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Reply

Gade757
.
.
Joined: 06 Sep 2017, 04:33

08 Nov 2017, 01:42 #3


viewtopic.php?t=126034


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Reply

JohnEboy
.
.
Joined: 06 Feb 2014, 02:46

08 Nov 2017, 14:28 #4

nick2369 wrote: just stupid question. for 100% p&t mental disorder i don't go out i don't work. but can i use my computer to investing stocks if i made money from this does it count as work?is this income gonna affect my rating for future?i was reading some post here some people said work gonna affect va rating i understand but i just don't know this is count as work or not?sorry for this stupid question
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc400/tc429
I think this kind of says it all. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc400/tc429  The IRS Rules say that an person not specifically Trading in stock and securities for the profit derived from the movement of the stock and securities is just investing.  The IRS defines a Trader this way:

"Traders
Special rules apply if you're a trader in securities, in the business of buying and selling securities for your own account. The law considers this to be a business, even though a trader doesn't maintain an inventory and doesn't have customers. To be engaged in business as a trader in securities, you must meet all of the following conditions:
  • You must seek to profit from daily market movements in the prices of securities and not from dividends, interest, or capital appreciation;
  • Your activity must be substantial; and
  • You must carry on the activity with continuity and regularity."
To be considered a Trader a person must meet all 3 of the rules and must be doing the "investing" specifically to make profit from the daily movement of the price of the stock and securities.  So .......  I don't know what the VA would say but this is what the IRS says.
<br>


Reply

Cavmedic
...
...
Joined: 13 Aug 2009, 06:19

08 Nov 2017, 14:29 #5

Would be amazing considering 100% for Mental Health as well
Reply

57AHC
.
.
Joined: 28 Jun 2016, 16:53

09 Nov 2017, 11:51 #6

Traders are not "investing".  They are trading stocks as commodities.

Traders must "mark to market" each trading account at the end of their year.  

The criteria for identifying yourself as a trader are here:
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc400/tc429

Each "trading account" must be separate from any "investing account" and detailed
records of all trades must be maintained just as any business records and reports it's
inventory gains and losses.

The qualifications require "regular and substantial" work.
Reply

Nick
.
.
Joined: 27 Feb 2011, 02:04

09 Nov 2017, 14:39 #7

The IRS distinctions are helpful but not binding on VBA.  The issue for VA is the ability of the vet.

See working-with-a-va-rating-t167000.html?s ... 78534e71ba
Nick
USAF RETIRED
100% P&T
100% CRSC

Complete layman - not a VSO and not a VA employee.
Reply

57AHC
.
.
Joined: 28 Jun 2016, 16:53

10 Nov 2017, 14:56 #8

Nick wrote: The IRS distinctions are helpful but not binding on VBA.  The issue for VA is the ability of the vet.

See working-with-a-va-rating-t167000.html?s ... 78534e71ba
The ability of the vet to qualify as a "trader" by the IRS definition would preclude any TDIU or 100% mental vet from the activity.

Just like driving a truck for seasonal work to stay under the income minimums.

Proof of "regular and substantial" activity is required to treat an account as a trading account.

An investment account does NOT REQUIRE regular and substantial activity and therefore would not be in violation of the VBA rating.

To the IRS, the main difference between a trader and an investor is the way the trades are treated for tax purposes.
To the VBA, any non-sheltered regular and substantial activity is precluded.

Buying and selling stocks as an investor is NOT "trading" stocks.

Controlling an investment account is viewed as a passive activity and allowed within the confines of the 100% mental or TDIU restrictions.

Working as a "trader" does not fit the VBA restrictions of total social and occupational disability.
Reply

Nick
.
.
Joined: 27 Feb 2011, 02:04

10 Nov 2017, 15:58 #9

The IRS defines a trader for the purpose of administering tax law - qualifying for trader tax status  means you can use business treatment for trading expenses as opposed to the default investment treatment.  A taxpayer does not decide  to be a trader -it’s an optional tax status based on facts and circumstances. A person may qualify as a trader  one year but not the next.

The VA does not care whether the IRS considers the vet a trader or not.  The VA cares whether the vet is capable of substantially gainful work.  That is a function of time and effort.  A vet who is spending extensive amounts of time buying and selling in the market is demonstrating an ability to work even if he is losing his shirt in the market while doing so.  If he spends little time or effort  monitoring investments which succeed in making a pile of money, he may still not be employable.

We are not going to re argue this point over and over again - that is why we have the pinned topic.

The poster will have to decide if the activity that he is involved in is consistent with his abilities and his rating.
Nick
USAF RETIRED
100% P&T
100% CRSC

Complete layman - not a VSO and not a VA employee.
Reply

Rotor Head
...
...
Joined: 17 Nov 2013, 19:52

11 Nov 2017, 00:56 #10

Nick wrote: The IRS defines a trader for the purpose of administering tax law - qualifying for trader tax status  means you can use business treatment for trading expenses as opposed to the default investment treatment.  A taxpayer does not decide  to be a trader -it’s an optional tax status based on facts and circumstances. A person may qualify as a trader  one year but not the next.

The VA does not care whether the IRS considers the vet a trader or not.  The VA cares whether the vet is capable of substantially gainful work.  That is a function of time and effort.  A vet who is spending extensive amounts of time buying and selling in the market is demonstrating an ability to work even if he is losing his shirt in the market while doing so.  If he spends little time or effort  monitoring investments which succeed in making a pile of money, he may still not be employable.

We are not going to re argue this point over and over again - that is why we have the pinned topic.

The poster will have to decide if the activity that he is involved in is consistent with his abilities and his rating.
Couldn't have said it better.  Currently there are no income matches for 100% schedular folks.  This is true regardless of the type of disability.  We even have Veterans coming with tales of 100% MH ratings even though they were working. The VA was aware of their employment. It happens.  Get over it. No need to keep bringing this up thread after thread. It's not our job to judge or brow beat the folks coming in with questions.  It does nothing to further the mission here.  It may prevent a Veteran from seeking our help though.
All info supplied in an 'As-Is' condition.  No warranties expressed or implied.  See owner's manual for details...

SGT USMC 6112 '81-'87  

Reply

Spunky
h3
h3
Joined: 23 Sep 2013, 05:41

13 Nov 2017, 04:36 #11

I throw this out for consideration;

Part of 38 CFR 4.15
Total disability will be considered to exist when there is present any impairment of mind or body which is sufficient to render it impossible for the average person to follow a substantially gainful occupation; Provided, That permanent total disability shall be taken to exist when the impairment is reasonably certain to continue throughout the life of the disabled person.

38 CFR 4.126(b)
(b) When evaluating the level of disability from a mental disorder, the rating agency will consider the extent of social impairment, but shall not assign an evaluation solely on the basis of social impairment.

38 CFR 4.130
Total occupational and social impairment, due to such symptoms as: gross impairment in thought processes or communication; persistent delusions or hallucinations; grossly inappropriate behavior; persistent danger of hurting self or others; intermittent inability to perform activities of daily living (including maintenance of minimal personal hygiene); disorientation to time or place; memory loss for names of close relatives, own occupation, or own name.
___________________
USAF (ret) 1991-2012
VBA Counselor 2014-2016
VBA RVSR 2016-current
90% SMC-K
Reply