Companion Equipment Tweaks, And Discussion

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Companion Equipment Tweaks, And Discussion

Joined: 15 Jul 2004, 06:35

22 Apr 2016, 16:52 #1

Some NPC/companion equipment tweaks and checks on the table.

Firstly, we'll be having NPCs wearing the new clothes/armours they get. Armouring companions becomes possible. NPCs can now actively wear the new clothes/armours they have obtained. They'll usually go for wearing new clothes/armours after being delivered or having picked some. Delivering useful pieces of clothing/armour to your companion is now worthwhile, even though NPCs make the final decision whether they will wear something or not.

Then, two new conditions have been added to prevent exploiting companion recruiting with returned village goods:

1. Companions don't count the returned village property as their own when checking if they have enough equipment to join you.

2. When companion agrees to join you they won't keep carrying the returned village property but drop it on the ground where other villages come to reclaim it.

...which brings us to topic whether the companion inventory should be kept accessible to player character without restrictions, or if there should be some kind of [borrowed] tagging to companion items and you need to eventually return the items picked from the companion. Borrowing mechanism is now quite doable, but I haven't made up my mind about it just yet and I'm interested in people's opinions and ideas.

There are few important questions to borrowing:
Can you borrow everything?
What happens if you don't return the borrowed items?

It should be remembered the borrowed items can sometimes get lost/broken. If you borrow a spear from your companion and use it to save your both lives, but the spear breaks in the combat, it's not quite okay if the companion gets mad at you when you can't return the original item.

So, having to return the original borrowed items is complicated in numerous ways.
I've been thinking about a system where companions would remember the rough value of their initial gear, and when parting they would ask you to deliver items that meet roughly the same value. Even if the borrowed companion equipment would get lost or destroyed you could pay their services by any valuable loot, hides etc.
This way we could also add mechanism for companions to actually require some extra payment for their services.

Thoughts, ideas?
- Sami, UnReal World creator, sami@unrealworld.fi

This could be a good day to utilize your squirrels hides.
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Joined: 08 Nov 2014, 15:26

22 Apr 2016, 19:25 #2

Sami Maaranen @ Apr 22 2016, 09:52 AM wrote:Some NPC/companion equipment tweaks and checks on the table.

Firstly, we'll be having NPCs wearing the new clothes/armours they get. Armouring companions becomes possible... even though NPCs make the final decision whether they will wear something or not.
I love this! No longer will the poor old dude in the village have to winter without shoes!!!
Sami Maaranen wrote: Then, two new conditions have been added to prevent exploiting companion recruiting with returned village goods:
Very clean solutions.
Sami Maaranen wrote: if there should be some kind of [borrowed] tagging to companion items..
..Borrowing mechanism is now quite doable
imo, if possible, reputation and/or personal relationship (interaction with specific npc) should count toward whether an npc would lend "You" an item;
"Sure you can borrow the rough javelin", "I would like it back if possible..."
"I'm not comfortable giving you my handaxe, maybe once I know you better."
"I trust you with my life, of course you can borrow my xxxxx, return it when you can."

A rough value system for tracking would probably work pretty well. If possible, this could also
help build or detract from area "fame". Item borrowed, replaced with acceptable item(s) for
whatever reason, NPC adds reputation/trust/fame whatever you want to call it.
If the npc survives to return home, your fame in the town could edge up as well.
Likewise, killing or loosing companions would be noted (as now), disgruntled npcs, you don't
return or replace the item(s), npc leaves (I don't think causing a fight is a good recourse) returns
home and "shares" his displeasure in dealing with you.
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Joined: 18 May 2014, 14:18

22 Apr 2016, 20:17 #3

All of the above sounds great!

One thought is whether they would lend you something should, in the ideal, depend on what they have. They shouldn't be willing to lend you their only melee weapon, for example, unless you first give them an alternate one. If they have two, I can see them parting with a spare much more easily.

They should only let you "borrow" food if you are suffering from severe hunger, or something along those lines.

Another possibly consequence to failing to return borrowed value is that the NPC "curses you before the spirits", or the appropriate cultural equivalent. This would reduce your standing with the spirits by an appropriate degree.
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Joined: 04 Feb 2013, 23:28

22 Apr 2016, 20:33 #4

This sounds great, Sami!
I like the idea "rough value of their initial gear..." you explained.


Can you borrow everything?
>>>> No, only items they don't need for themselves.
>>>> Especially weapons & armor.

What happens if you don't return the borrowed items?
>>>> I agree with what's been said above.
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Joined: 10 May 2014, 17:06

22 Apr 2016, 21:45 #5

I have been waiting to hear something like this for ages!
It might be cumbersome, but three options for, gift, lend and carry could be nice. If you gift your companion something, he will eat/wear it, but it will not be returned. If you lend him armor he will wear it but will return it. And if they are told to carry something they won't eat/wear it, or use it.
Maybe just lend and carry since gifting is already possible. Or maybe just replace gift with lend and never ask for it back?

Anyway, I like what privateer says in his first post.

Now I just need companions that will stay for life with you, and after that, marriage and my village will be ready to go. :lol: :rolleyes:
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Joined: 10 May 2014, 17:06

22 Apr 2016, 21:48 #6

As a side not, is there a way (for you) to track if NPC return to the villages? I have had cases, in older versions, where NPC decide to go adventuring and never return. In one case I dismissed my companion in his own village after some days of adventuring and he went away, his neighbors telling me they haven't seen them since he left with me. Again in an older version of the game.
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Joined: 16 Aug 2015, 14:50

22 Apr 2016, 23:13 #7

Sami Maaranen @ Apr 22 2016, 04:52 PM wrote:a system where companions would remember the rough value of their initial gear, and when parting they would ask you to deliver items that meet roughly the same value. Even if the borrowed companion equipment would get lost or destroyed you could pay their services by any valuable loot, hides etc.
This way we could also add mechanism for companions to actually require some extra payment for their services.

Thoughts, ideas?
i like this its something like sharing the spoils of war.

time(already paid for in food) + effort(fights, cutting trees....etc)/2+(rleations from -1 to 1) + borrowed items if any = separation pay
Damn I love this game.
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Joined: 15 Jul 2006, 10:56

23 Apr 2016, 10:54 #8

Having the NPC just expect to be paid in balance at the end seems a lot easier to code than tracking each individual item and then adding the same functionality to account for lost items. I agree with many of the others: you should be able to get things they don't need (spare weapons etc) but also they shouldn't be willing to trade away small highly valuable things like hides. They also need to keep their bows and and some arrows if they have them.

Perhaps instead if the negotiations were a little more like a trade. They tell you what they need and then you have a full blown trade open up where only those things have value using the foregin trader/furs mechanics. Eg the NPC wants a weapon and more food then only weapons and food have value to them. In this scenario you can also get some items back (take this spear and 20 cuts but I want your cord, the fox skin and your spare handaxe). Further "trades" are handled the same way.

No matter how it works out, I don't think an NPC should be willing to totally disarm with you out in the woods or hand over all their food or water.

Either way, a dedicated "carry this for me" mechanic would be useful.

As a tangent, I wouldn't mind seeing something about longer term relationships come out of this. Like, if I've given them significant valued, useful goods like armor and weaponry...that they might change into a more long term companion that follows different rules. They'd be easier, more accessible to trade gear with but track in the log term how much their net value has increased with you, how well fed they've been etc. Eventually, later, this could be expanded into beds, designated food sources, marriage etc.

A bit off topic and rambling, I know, but just brainstorming.
Sometimes it's far too easy to get mad, but then you find one little gem of truth and it makes you laugh. The universe is truly a wondrous place.

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Joined: 15 Jul 2004, 06:35

24 Apr 2016, 13:21 #9

Thanks guys! Lots of good brainstorming, ideas and thoughts to continue working on this.

Mati256 asked:
As a side not, is there a way (for you) to track if NPC return to the villages? I have had cases, in older versions, where NPC decide to go adventuring and never return. In one case I dismissed my companion in his own village after some days of adventuring and he went away, his neighbors telling me they haven't seen them since he left with me. Again in an older version of the game.
Apart from following the parted companion all the way to their home village there's no way to track if they manage to return. In older versions companions returning home wasn't as intelligent as it currently is, but for the past few versions they've been very efficient in finding their way back. Of course it's possible for them to die (for variety of reasons) while wandering back.
- Sami, UnReal World creator, sami@unrealworld.fi

This could be a good day to utilize your squirrels hides.
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Joined: 13 Jan 2016, 04:34

28 Apr 2016, 03:15 #10

Hugeknight @ Apr 22 2016, 11:13 PM wrote: i like this its something like sharing the spoils of war.

time(already paid for in food) + effort(fights, cutting trees....etc)/2+(rleations from -1 to 1) + borrowed items if any = separation pay

Maybe add some extra suspicion between different cultures.
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Joined: 01 Nov 2014, 05:56

28 Apr 2016, 03:31 #11

tenth1 @ Apr 28 2016, 03:15 AM wrote: Maybe add some extra suspicion between different cultures.
Perhaps, but I would personally be against implementing something like this because it would appear to encourage xenophobia. Certainly while the Sami peoples have had very good reason to be suspicious of outsiders for as long as anyone could remember, there's ample archaeological evidence to suggest this actually wasn't so much the case until centralized government reached Finland, in the form of Swedish domination, well after the time URW is set in. And as for the Eastern and Western tribes behaving in this way... well, let's just say, with the political climate in Europe being what it is today, that kind of hard-coded suspicion of others hits too close to home, I think.

Of course, that is not to say that people in real life are always open-minded and welcoming, and certainly people have preferred to associate with like-minded people, or people who share a similar cultural background, since time immemorial. But let's not forget that hospitality toward strangers is an equally strongly held value in most ancient human societies, and there are countless stories both within the Nordic countries and without of families and even entire villages sheltering "enemy" individuals, willingly and often at significant personal risk.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing for a squeaky-clean, politically correct world. I actually think it would be interesting to interact with and/or roleplay bigoted, nasty characters... however, that is all a moot point unless individual personalities are ever implemented, which in itself may be too complicated an overhaul to really be worth it. What I am objecting to is having suspicion of newcomers be hard-coded into culture, which I think is doing a disservice both to players of the game and to the ancient Finns who provided the inspiration for this game.
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Joined: 15 Jul 2006, 10:56

28 Apr 2016, 19:22 #12

One of the things that has actually always struck me as odd is the lack of of negative relations between any of the tribes. I refuse to believe, based on every period of human history in every culture in every other place in the world, that the Sami people were universally peaceful and respectful to each other at all times and that evil entered eden only after foreigners showed up. Humans like that don't exist.

To put it bluntly, I would like to see a little bigotry in the game. As bad as that sounds, it's realistic. I could see, for instance, the northern tribes being seen and talked to as backwards. For the easterners to be seen as a bit violent, or for the westerners to be seen as less trustworthy and , to quote skyrim, milk drinkers. None of these prejudices need be monolitihc nor negative. "Backwards" can also be "magical", "violent" as "brave", "conniving" as "cunning"

The population is small and spread out enough to preclude warfare (but that would, btw, be freaking awesome) but there would certainly be ample opportunity for less extreme conflicts.

This could be a great opportunity to explore in the upcoming quest system, with quests that illuminate inter-tribal bias and social misunderstandings.

Perhaps an Islander wants you to "rescue" his sister from a Seal tribe brute, but on finding her you see she is happily married and her husband sends you back with an appropriate gift to her family. In another version of the quest, she is a captive but will be released when the Islanders right some wrong they committed to the Seal Tribe.

A Kaumo feels he has been cheated by a Driik trader. Maybe he was, and you have to deal with the thugs (robbers) or perhaps the hides were poor quality and the Kaumo responds violently when you return empty handed.

An owl tribe shaman wants you to deter a group of Kiesse trappers that are on their yearly trip, but are trapping a scared animal/in a sacred place/too early taking pregnant females. They asked them to stop but the Kiesse threatened violence which is not the Owl way.

Bands of robbers from other cultures preying on neighbors might be the targets of quests from the victim (save us!) OR the source (My idiot son and his hoodlum friends....) and player tribal affiliation and reputation might play a big role in determining if the solution is violent or not.
Sometimes it's far too easy to get mad, but then you find one little gem of truth and it makes you laugh. The universe is truly a wondrous place.

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Joined: 01 Nov 2014, 05:56

28 Apr 2016, 21:02 #13

Rain @ Apr 28 2016, 07:22 PM wrote: To put it bluntly, I would like to see a little bigotry in the game. As bad as that sounds, it's realistic. I could see, for instance, the northern tribes being seen and talked to as backwards. For the easterners to be seen as a bit violent, or for the westerners to be seen as less trustworthy and, to quote skyrim, milk drinkers. None of these prejudices need be monolithic nor negative. "Backwards" can also be "magical", "violent" as "brave", "conniving" as "cunning"
But that assumes that tribes at the time would have had clear tribal loyalties and identities to begin with, and I don't think that's a given for this time period and place. It's easy to lose sight of that fact because every one of us in the modern day has a specific and unambiguous nationality and citizenship.

But how would a "Kaumo" woodsman have actually identified as Kaumo in the first place? There were no enforced borders, no passports, no citizenship laws, no centralized authority to serve as the arbiter on whether someone is a proper "Kaumo" or an outsider. Our identities did not form in a vacuum: we identify with a particular nationality, interest group, or even something as abstract as an ideology because it has an impact on our lives. I mean, all other things being equal, we can venture that a random Kaumo man would probably have felt more at ease with another random Kaumo man than with a random Driik man, simply by virtue of them that having some kind of culture in common (maybe a language, or maybe the Kaumo make their bread a certain way, or maybe there is a Kaumo-specific etiquette, or whatever) but it's equally possible that a Kaumo who does intense business with foreign traders feels more of an affinity with them than with another Kaumo who spends most of his time hunting further inland.

I am not saying that ugliness, violence, and prejudice did not exist... obviously, even now our PCs can encounter robbers that can be of any tribe including their own (and when was the last time a mugger let someone off the hook because the potential victim was the same race / creed / nationality as s/he?). And despite living scattered apart and probably without a monolithic sense of identity, the Finnish landscape is peppered with Iron-Age hillforts to this day, so obviously they had their share of skirmishes, and were able to band together at least occasionally to achieve this. But on a day-to-day basis, and especially with the kind of quests you are talking about, there really is no need to bring a larger sense of "tribehood" into it. All those scenarios you talk about (which is some pretty great storytelling, btw) make perfect sense even after excising all mention of tribe names:
Rain @ Apr 28 2016, 07:22 PM wrote: A man wants you to "rescue" his sister from a brute from a neighboring village, but on finding her you see she is happily married and her husband sends you back with an appropriate gift to her family.
Rain @ Apr 28 2016, 07:22 PM wrote: In another version of the quest, she is a captive but will be released when the neighboring villagers right some wrong they committed to this village.
Rain @ Apr 28 2016, 07:22 PM wrote: A hunter feels he has been cheated by a trader. Maybe he was, and you have to deal with the thugs (robbers) or perhaps the hides were poor quality and the hunter responds violently when you return empty handed.
Rain @ Apr 28 2016, 07:22 PM wrote: A shaman wants you to deter a group of trappers that are on their yearly trip, but are trapping a scared animal / in a sacred place / too early / taking pregnant females. They asked them to stop but the trappers threatened violence which is not a shaman's way.
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Joined: 15 Jul 2006, 10:56

28 Apr 2016, 22:26 #14

Well our theoretical Kaumo wouldn't certainly say, "Hi I'm Bob, and I'm a Kaumo". He would identify himself as from the Kaumo and would be most familiar with the styles, behavior and etiquette of that region. He'd be familiar and comfortable to a lesser extent to the cultures in proximity or sharing some commonness. But when comparing what he is used to with a more foreign tribe such as the people of the islands the differences would be more extreme and lead to some prejudice and misunderstandings.

The origin of the current nationstate identity is a direct derivative of tribal identification. Head to any location on the planet where there remain "primitive" peoples and they can provide you with what their group name is, which is nearly universally not that of the modern nationstate that claims sovereignty over that area. In many cases it's going to be, similar to Urw, a name meaning "People that live in this region",

The only thing missing between ourselves and the people of Unreal World is that we have these organizational super identities like "American" or "European" etc. Case in point: even though I identify as an American, I also identify as a Virginian. I also identify with, and see differences with, peoples from other regions of both entities. And stripping away both of those I even identify myself with the individual peninsula I live on and know, and participate in, beliefs held about the people that live on the landmasses around me. The people north of me, on my own peninsula, are a bit too affluent for their own good and let you know it. The peninsula to the east is a bit backwater. The city across the bay is full of people that don't know how to drive.

Prejudice and social contrast/conflict is not dependent of modern amalgamation of cultures. All it takes is a clear fracture line between "what we're like" and "what they are like" and the human psyche is wired to find, communicate and prejudge based on those perceptions.

There is no "Noble Savage" and there never was.
Sometimes it's far too easy to get mad, but then you find one little gem of truth and it makes you laugh. The universe is truly a wondrous place.

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Joined: 10 May 2014, 17:06

28 Apr 2016, 22:34 #15

I was wondering, will this mechanic apply to every NPC or just companions? Because I like to gift clothes to half naked wanderers and it would be nice of them to actually wear them.
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