Possible rule changes which need some discussion

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Possible rule changes which need some discussion

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2002 4:23 am

Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:32 am #1

Greetings,

I have three areas which require your input/thoughts/feelings on modifications to the OLA Masters rules. We intend to apply these in our house league next summer as a test case to see the results.

In no order of importance then are:

1. Remove the 24' line for all shots on net. If a player hits anyone with their stick, body or ball during the shot a double minor will be accessed. If it is deem as intentional or careless then a 5 minute major will be accessed.

2. Teams can play short-handed by two men when serving penalties. This would open up the floor during PP making shots on net safer. There will be no penalty shot given if a team already has two men in the box and receives a third penalty.

3. In conjunction with penalties, they will be served in the order assessed and will not start until a previous one expires or is released because of a goal. This means if a team has two players in the box and is assessed another penalty. The third penalty will not start until the first one released. A team can only be short handed by a maximum of two players.

Although I don't know the previous rationale for only allowing teams to be short handed by one man, following the suggestions not only falls within the current the rules and policies of the OLA but also ensures that the player's behaviour is addressed in a fair manner.


I would be quite interested in your ideas!

Cheers,

Jim
Aurora Masters Lacrosse
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:56 pm

Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:29 am #2

How about following the draw rules in place in box from Tyke to Junior and for all levels of field... i.e.: if the ball gets lodged in a drawmans stick he loses possession. Currently, too many specialized drawmen in Masters just blatently cheating, trapping with illegally pinched sticks because Masters rules don't allow for stick calls. Then when the ball gets stuck, ref blows whistle, allows guy to take it out with his fingers and keep it! this rule is currently not allowed ANYWHERE, but Masters and is counter to the spirit of fair play.

In the 4 games we played on Nationals weekend, our opponents "won" 6 draws this way, if you're not gonna check sticks, which i agree is burdensome, then take the ball from the guy cheating. I am a big fan of minimal rules, but the free-for-all that has become the draw in Masters is really the only thing a dislike.

cheers
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:24 pm

Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:32 pm #3

I totally agree with what you are saying + the rule states that you cannot "pin" the ball in the faceoff circle but I don't think I have ever seen it called.
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:24 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:19 am #4

Greetings,

I have three areas which require your input/thoughts/feelings on modifications to the OLA Masters rules. We intend to apply these in our house league next summer as a test case to see the results.

In no order of importance then are:

1. Remove the 24' line for all shots on net. If a player hits anyone with their stick, body or ball during the shot a double minor will be accessed. If it is deem as intentional or careless then a 5 minute major will be accessed.

2. Teams can play short-handed by two men when serving penalties. This would open up the floor during PP making shots on net safer. There will be no penalty shot given if a team already has two men in the box and receives a third penalty.

3. In conjunction with penalties, they will be served in the order assessed and will not start until a previous one expires or is released because of a goal. This means if a team has two players in the box and is assessed another penalty. The third penalty will not start until the first one released. A team can only be short handed by a maximum of two players.

Although I don't know the previous rationale for only allowing teams to be short handed by one man, following the suggestions not only falls within the current the rules and policies of the OLA but also ensures that the player's behaviour is addressed in a fair manner.


I would be quite interested in your ideas!

Cheers,

Jim
Aurora Masters Lacrosse
Jim ...U make some very insightful thoughts that I think all the members should seriously consider.1)I really like the idea of shooting from outside(keeps the goalies honest...cannot believe I said that???) and the removal of the dotted line.But I still feel that the bigger issue is the collapsing of the defense inside this line....please see the posted link (apologies to those in photo but it illustrates my point precisely) 2)If players are to receive two penalties for a dangerous shot then you MAY get more players tossed out per game especially with the 3 penalties and out rule...(gonna need bigger rosters)3)Two men short is cool cause it opens up floor space but I think the third penalty should still be a penalty shot.....(again roster size....often teams show up with 7 guys on friday nights)........As for the other posts in response to Jim.... inconsistent officiating is in my opinion the Biggest problem with masters......we can change the rules all we want but if officials r not calling the game the way its mandated then it all means shat.....There is nothing worse than 2 refs not calling the same game at both ends. sorry if this sounds like sour grapes but we have all been there at one time or another.....Thx Jim for creating the discussion.....I feel better already...lol..ie/ count the d inside the dots....http://canadamasterslacrosse.com/photos ... m=3&pos=15
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:42 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:03 am #5

I totally agree with what you are saying + the rule states that you cannot "pin" the ball in the faceoff circle but I don't think I have ever seen it called.
I also agree that if the ball is lodged in the stick during a faceoff, the possession should be turned over to the non-offending team. Allowing the ball to be lodged in your stick should not give you possession.
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:42 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:19 am #6

Jim ...U make some very insightful thoughts that I think all the members should seriously consider.1)I really like the idea of shooting from outside(keeps the goalies honest...cannot believe I said that???) and the removal of the dotted line.But I still feel that the bigger issue is the collapsing of the defense inside this line....please see the posted link (apologies to those in photo but it illustrates my point precisely) 2)If players are to receive two penalties for a dangerous shot then you MAY get more players tossed out per game especially with the 3 penalties and out rule...(gonna need bigger rosters)3)Two men short is cool cause it opens up floor space but I think the third penalty should still be a penalty shot.....(again roster size....often teams show up with 7 guys on friday nights)........As for the other posts in response to Jim.... inconsistent officiating is in my opinion the Biggest problem with masters......we can change the rules all we want but if officials r not calling the game the way its mandated then it all means shat.....There is nothing worse than 2 refs not calling the same game at both ends. sorry if this sounds like sour grapes but we have all been there at one time or another.....Thx Jim for creating the discussion.....I feel better already...lol..ie/ count the d inside the dots....http://canadamasterslacrosse.com/photos ... m=3&pos=15
Okay Jim, I hear what you and Riler are trying to do and I love that we are all trying to figure a way of making this a more enjoyable game.

I personally would not like to see the 24' line removed because of what it stands for on the floor. It gives players a visual cue to let you know where you can shoot from. It is also important because I still believe that letting people shoot from anywhere asks makes the game more dangerous and the arc gives a level of control. Yes the increased penalty does increase the level of awareness needed by the shooter but I think it will result in more injuries. We might end up with more DOVE MVP shots, let's hope not. I don't think that part of the game is broken, don't fix it.

My issue, as was mentioned by Riler, is the zone defense. You know me, I think I am the ref in any league that calls that the most because if teams are playing a zone, it takes away lanes to shoot in, it adds extra men to beat so it is likely that a 2nd man would prevent a good scoring opportunity. This needs to be cleared up with the refs and explained and defined clearly so that they know how to call it.

Lastly, the most important thing that needs to leave the game is the contact. We talked about trying to establish a way of limiting what the defender can do by allowing a particular stance or something. Defenders should be required to keep both hands on their stick and THEIR HANDS MUST BE TOGETHER!!! Way toooooo many cross-checks are happpening that don't make a noise so refs don't call it. That doesn't mean they don't hurt like hell. The defender can resist the contact but can't extend their arms to initiate contact. Also, the charge needs to be called way more. It isn't called unless it is blatent.

I think getting the refs straight and all on the same page would be a great help too. That is why I am unsure as to why you would change the rules in your league, that would seem to be a detrament because your players would get used to playing a certain way but would not be called that way in the tournys.

My 2 cents.
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 6:39 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:08 am #7

Jim ...U make some very insightful thoughts that I think all the members should seriously consider.1)I really like the idea of shooting from outside(keeps the goalies honest...cannot believe I said that???) and the removal of the dotted line.But I still feel that the bigger issue is the collapsing of the defense inside this line....please see the posted link (apologies to those in photo but it illustrates my point precisely) 2)If players are to receive two penalties for a dangerous shot then you MAY get more players tossed out per game especially with the 3 penalties and out rule...(gonna need bigger rosters)3)Two men short is cool cause it opens up floor space but I think the third penalty should still be a penalty shot.....(again roster size....often teams show up with 7 guys on friday nights)........As for the other posts in response to Jim.... inconsistent officiating is in my opinion the Biggest problem with masters......we can change the rules all we want but if officials r not calling the game the way its mandated then it all means shat.....There is nothing worse than 2 refs not calling the same game at both ends. sorry if this sounds like sour grapes but we have all been there at one time or another.....Thx Jim for creating the discussion.....I feel better already...lol..ie/ count the d inside the dots....http://canadamasterslacrosse.com/photos ... m=3&pos=15
Before I even clicked the link I knew it! lol It certainly illustrates your point though.

One rule I would like to see changed is the offensive team regaining possession on a ball the goalie made a save on. The defensive team is being penalized for their goalie making a save and the reverse happens on shots that hit the crossbar. The offensive team is penalized for almost scoring. I just don't get that rule or why it was ever changed. (yes I am a goalie)

I too would like to see the '24 foot like removed as well. Like Chris said it keeps the goalies honest and opens up the floor because you have to worry about defending the outside shot as well. I also think if this were to be implemented that you would get a penalty for dangerous shot even if you hit your own player.

Totally agree with you guys on the draw rule. We even have a guy on our team who can win draws like that, I don't think it's fair. I also can't stand this spinning around crap everyone always does on the draws and these pinched sticks are a direct result of that, both guys spinning and pushing to get the all locked in the plastic.
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 6:39 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:13 am #8

Okay Jim, I hear what you and Riler are trying to do and I love that we are all trying to figure a way of making this a more enjoyable game.

I personally would not like to see the 24' line removed because of what it stands for on the floor. It gives players a visual cue to let you know where you can shoot from. It is also important because I still believe that letting people shoot from anywhere asks makes the game more dangerous and the arc gives a level of control. Yes the increased penalty does increase the level of awareness needed by the shooter but I think it will result in more injuries. We might end up with more DOVE MVP shots, let's hope not. I don't think that part of the game is broken, don't fix it.

My issue, as was mentioned by Riler, is the zone defense. You know me, I think I am the ref in any league that calls that the most because if teams are playing a zone, it takes away lanes to shoot in, it adds extra men to beat so it is likely that a 2nd man would prevent a good scoring opportunity. This needs to be cleared up with the refs and explained and defined clearly so that they know how to call it.

Lastly, the most important thing that needs to leave the game is the contact. We talked about trying to establish a way of limiting what the defender can do by allowing a particular stance or something. Defenders should be required to keep both hands on their stick and THEIR HANDS MUST BE TOGETHER!!! Way toooooo many cross-checks are happpening that don't make a noise so refs don't call it. That doesn't mean they don't hurt like hell. The defender can resist the contact but can't extend their arms to initiate contact. Also, the charge needs to be called way more. It isn't called unless it is blatent.

I think getting the refs straight and all on the same page would be a great help too. That is why I am unsure as to why you would change the rules in your league, that would seem to be a detrament because your players would get used to playing a certain way but would not be called that way in the tournys.

My 2 cents.
One thing I would like to ask is did anyone actually get called on zone D this year? We've all had multiple warnings given to us but I can't for the life of remember a time when someone actually got the penalty this year, possibly even including last season.
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:29 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:14 pm #9

Okay Jim, I hear what you and Riler are trying to do and I love that we are all trying to figure a way of making this a more enjoyable game.

I personally would not like to see the 24' line removed because of what it stands for on the floor. It gives players a visual cue to let you know where you can shoot from. It is also important because I still believe that letting people shoot from anywhere asks makes the game more dangerous and the arc gives a level of control. Yes the increased penalty does increase the level of awareness needed by the shooter but I think it will result in more injuries. We might end up with more DOVE MVP shots, let's hope not. I don't think that part of the game is broken, don't fix it.

My issue, as was mentioned by Riler, is the zone defense. You know me, I think I am the ref in any league that calls that the most because if teams are playing a zone, it takes away lanes to shoot in, it adds extra men to beat so it is likely that a 2nd man would prevent a good scoring opportunity. This needs to be cleared up with the refs and explained and defined clearly so that they know how to call it.

Lastly, the most important thing that needs to leave the game is the contact. We talked about trying to establish a way of limiting what the defender can do by allowing a particular stance or something. Defenders should be required to keep both hands on their stick and THEIR HANDS MUST BE TOGETHER!!! Way toooooo many cross-checks are happpening that don't make a noise so refs don't call it. That doesn't mean they don't hurt like hell. The defender can resist the contact but can't extend their arms to initiate contact. Also, the charge needs to be called way more. It isn't called unless it is blatent.

I think getting the refs straight and all on the same page would be a great help too. That is why I am unsure as to why you would change the rules in your league, that would seem to be a detrament because your players would get used to playing a certain way but would not be called that way in the tournys.

My 2 cents.
...Allowing the players to shoot from anywhere will reduce the amount of clutching,grabbing and checking on the inside gordie..

Maybe only put it in junior next year..
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 3:46 pm

Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:47 pm #10

Jim ...U make some very insightful thoughts that I think all the members should seriously consider.1)I really like the idea of shooting from outside(keeps the goalies honest...cannot believe I said that???) and the removal of the dotted line.But I still feel that the bigger issue is the collapsing of the defense inside this line....please see the posted link (apologies to those in photo but it illustrates my point precisely) 2)If players are to receive two penalties for a dangerous shot then you MAY get more players tossed out per game especially with the 3 penalties and out rule...(gonna need bigger rosters)3)Two men short is cool cause it opens up floor space but I think the third penalty should still be a penalty shot.....(again roster size....often teams show up with 7 guys on friday nights)........As for the other posts in response to Jim.... inconsistent officiating is in my opinion the Biggest problem with masters......we can change the rules all we want but if officials r not calling the game the way its mandated then it all means shat.....There is nothing worse than 2 refs not calling the same game at both ends. sorry if this sounds like sour grapes but we have all been there at one time or another.....Thx Jim for creating the discussion.....I feel better already...lol..ie/ count the d inside the dots....http://canadamasterslacrosse.com/photos ... m=3&pos=15
In that photo, There are 3 whitby players in the 24' arc 3 Brampton players playing d on them and 2 collapsing in to double the ball.

We've always been allowed to double and triple team the ball, so as soon as the ball enters the 24' line you can collapse in providing you are going to the ball. If you look, 44 has the ball and everyone is collapsing on him (not really any different than this one here:http://canadamasterslacrosse.com/photos ... um=3&pos=2).

The problem is too many teams jam the middle of the floor so when you get a guy who drives to the net with the ball, there are a handful of players in the zone. If you watch Welland play, they rarely have more than 1 guy standing in the 24' line on offense. You start getting 2 and 3 people in there and you'll get guys collapsing once the ball gets in there.
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