Would this actually work?

Joined: January 24th, 2017, 1:35 am

November 21st, 2017, 12:18 pm #1

Some friends of mine and I were writing a fictional novel set in modern day with supernatural aspects to it, and were trying to come up with a weapon for a certain character. A handgun, to be specific. However, the fellow in question was seven foot tall with fists like ham hocks, and even an M1911A1 would look like a Mauser if you just built up the grip. So, since he needed an outsized handgrip anyway, he went to his friends to see about getting a bigger boom while they were at it.

After some discussion about the difficulties in making custom brass bigger than .50 because that's when it stops becoming bullets and starts becoming shells, and the impracticality of setting up a machine shop to produce custom brass for a single handgun found nowhere else in the world, they were looking for alternates when his eyes lit upon a 12ga shotgun shell. After some discussion, a weapon evolved. A six-chambered break-forward (like a Webley or a .38 special) twelve gage 2-1/4" revolver, double action. On paper, it seems like a practical weapon for the fellow, since his wrists and strength are well off the human charts and can handle the recoil such a weapon would produce. Slugs would... well, it's basically a .75 revolver, take a bloody guess. That's mostly for 'big game', something that NEEDS an elephant gun just to get its attention. Standard 00 Buckshot ought to do well for hall-sweeping and general usage. You can do custom loads to fit any weaknesses the monster of the week might have. And since he's working with an MIB-like organization that doesn't officially exist, 12ga shell casings are ubiquitous as hell, much moreso than custom brass that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

The more we started talking about it, the more it sounded like it might actually be possible to build for real. It doesn't have a stock, so it wouldn't fall under SBS in most jurisdictions (except maybe California... those guys are nuts), it wouldn't fall under breeching weapon either, so probably just get lumped into AOW. Obviously no human would be able to fire the damn thing without breaking their wrist, but I was wondering if it might be possible to build. It'd probably need an extended barrel (for a pistol) to make sure enough of the powder burns before it leaves to have the muzzle velocity you'd want, which might hamper quick-draws. Shotgun shells are pretty low on the bore pressure so the classic problem involving the revolver chambers would be less of a problem. It would almost have to be smoothbore, which means its accuracy outside fifty feet is pretty much crap, but would further reduce bore pressure issues.

I dunno, from an engineering perspective, you think it would be feasible? I bet Hellboy wouldn't mind one...
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 26th, 2015, 2:02 pm

November 21st, 2017, 1:35 pm #2

But I seem to recall that rifled shotguns are a thing that exist, though they are most effective when used with slug... Which can also be had rifled. I'm not sure how hard on the shooter this would really be, 12ga can be hip-shot, after all, and this beast is going to be HEAVY, so as long as there is somewhere to put your off hand, all you'd have to do is ride the recoil. Firing something like skeet loads, your arms would get tired holding the gun up long before you'd have any real worries about recoil induced injuries, imho.

Building it would be entirely possible, but the entire frame, at minimum, would be custom. You can (probably) use an off the shelf barrel, with some modifications, but at the end of the day, I could see it being easier to custom make everything else, rather than trying to adapt an existing firing mechanism.

TL;DR, you can build it, and perhaps even shoot it, but it would be really expensive, and require a lot of machine shop time.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 17th, 2014, 11:09 am

November 21st, 2017, 1:36 pm #3

Some friends of mine and I were writing a fictional novel set in modern day with supernatural aspects to it, and were trying to come up with a weapon for a certain character. A handgun, to be specific. However, the fellow in question was seven foot tall with fists like ham hocks, and even an M1911A1 would look like a Mauser if you just built up the grip. So, since he needed an outsized handgrip anyway, he went to his friends to see about getting a bigger boom while they were at it.

After some discussion about the difficulties in making custom brass bigger than .50 because that's when it stops becoming bullets and starts becoming shells, and the impracticality of setting up a machine shop to produce custom brass for a single handgun found nowhere else in the world, they were looking for alternates when his eyes lit upon a 12ga shotgun shell. After some discussion, a weapon evolved. A six-chambered break-forward (like a Webley or a .38 special) twelve gage 2-1/4" revolver, double action. On paper, it seems like a practical weapon for the fellow, since his wrists and strength are well off the human charts and can handle the recoil such a weapon would produce. Slugs would... well, it's basically a .75 revolver, take a bloody guess. That's mostly for 'big game', something that NEEDS an elephant gun just to get its attention. Standard 00 Buckshot ought to do well for hall-sweeping and general usage. You can do custom loads to fit any weaknesses the monster of the week might have. And since he's working with an MIB-like organization that doesn't officially exist, 12ga shell casings are ubiquitous as hell, much moreso than custom brass that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

The more we started talking about it, the more it sounded like it might actually be possible to build for real. It doesn't have a stock, so it wouldn't fall under SBS in most jurisdictions (except maybe California... those guys are nuts), it wouldn't fall under breeching weapon either, so probably just get lumped into AOW. Obviously no human would be able to fire the damn thing without breaking their wrist, but I was wondering if it might be possible to build. It'd probably need an extended barrel (for a pistol) to make sure enough of the powder burns before it leaves to have the muzzle velocity you'd want, which might hamper quick-draws. Shotgun shells are pretty low on the bore pressure so the classic problem involving the revolver chambers would be less of a problem. It would almost have to be smoothbore, which means its accuracy outside fifty feet is pretty much crap, but would further reduce bore pressure issues.

I dunno, from an engineering perspective, you think it would be feasible? I bet Hellboy wouldn't mind one...
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... d-russian/

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 8th, 2014, 2:05 pm

November 21st, 2017, 2:30 pm #4

Some friends of mine and I were writing a fictional novel set in modern day with supernatural aspects to it, and were trying to come up with a weapon for a certain character. A handgun, to be specific. However, the fellow in question was seven foot tall with fists like ham hocks, and even an M1911A1 would look like a Mauser if you just built up the grip. So, since he needed an outsized handgrip anyway, he went to his friends to see about getting a bigger boom while they were at it.

After some discussion about the difficulties in making custom brass bigger than .50 because that's when it stops becoming bullets and starts becoming shells, and the impracticality of setting up a machine shop to produce custom brass for a single handgun found nowhere else in the world, they were looking for alternates when his eyes lit upon a 12ga shotgun shell. After some discussion, a weapon evolved. A six-chambered break-forward (like a Webley or a .38 special) twelve gage 2-1/4" revolver, double action. On paper, it seems like a practical weapon for the fellow, since his wrists and strength are well off the human charts and can handle the recoil such a weapon would produce. Slugs would... well, it's basically a .75 revolver, take a bloody guess. That's mostly for 'big game', something that NEEDS an elephant gun just to get its attention. Standard 00 Buckshot ought to do well for hall-sweeping and general usage. You can do custom loads to fit any weaknesses the monster of the week might have. And since he's working with an MIB-like organization that doesn't officially exist, 12ga shell casings are ubiquitous as hell, much moreso than custom brass that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

The more we started talking about it, the more it sounded like it might actually be possible to build for real. It doesn't have a stock, so it wouldn't fall under SBS in most jurisdictions (except maybe California... those guys are nuts), it wouldn't fall under breeching weapon either, so probably just get lumped into AOW. Obviously no human would be able to fire the damn thing without breaking their wrist, but I was wondering if it might be possible to build. It'd probably need an extended barrel (for a pistol) to make sure enough of the powder burns before it leaves to have the muzzle velocity you'd want, which might hamper quick-draws. Shotgun shells are pretty low on the bore pressure so the classic problem involving the revolver chambers would be less of a problem. It would almost have to be smoothbore, which means its accuracy outside fifty feet is pretty much crap, but would further reduce bore pressure issues.

I dunno, from an engineering perspective, you think it would be feasible? I bet Hellboy wouldn't mind one...
Top break revolvers don't have the best reputation when it comes to frame strength. Although most guys I know who've had problems with them actually had issues with the latch, which would stretch and eventually not hold the gun closed properly. (Granted, most of those guns were cheap pocket revolvers from the early 1900s, but if even a little .38 S&W will do that, it's going to be a worse problem with a cartridge or shell with more oomph.) That's the reason most modern large caliber revolvers use a tip-out cylinder on a crane.

If you want to use a rifled barrel you could consider using custom cartridges with saboted slugs. A sabot is a shroud (usually plastic) that surrounds the actual projectile. The sabot engages the rifling in the barrel and imparts spin to the slug, then falls off of the slug after it leaves the barrel. This might not be a good idea if your character is trying to remain anonymous. Someone investigating a shooting scene may find a sabot and be able to associate it with other events.
If it ain't broke, I'll fix it!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 19th, 2014, 2:46 pm

November 21st, 2017, 3:40 pm #5

Some friends of mine and I were writing a fictional novel set in modern day with supernatural aspects to it, and were trying to come up with a weapon for a certain character. A handgun, to be specific. However, the fellow in question was seven foot tall with fists like ham hocks, and even an M1911A1 would look like a Mauser if you just built up the grip. So, since he needed an outsized handgrip anyway, he went to his friends to see about getting a bigger boom while they were at it.

After some discussion about the difficulties in making custom brass bigger than .50 because that's when it stops becoming bullets and starts becoming shells, and the impracticality of setting up a machine shop to produce custom brass for a single handgun found nowhere else in the world, they were looking for alternates when his eyes lit upon a 12ga shotgun shell. After some discussion, a weapon evolved. A six-chambered break-forward (like a Webley or a .38 special) twelve gage 2-1/4" revolver, double action. On paper, it seems like a practical weapon for the fellow, since his wrists and strength are well off the human charts and can handle the recoil such a weapon would produce. Slugs would... well, it's basically a .75 revolver, take a bloody guess. That's mostly for 'big game', something that NEEDS an elephant gun just to get its attention. Standard 00 Buckshot ought to do well for hall-sweeping and general usage. You can do custom loads to fit any weaknesses the monster of the week might have. And since he's working with an MIB-like organization that doesn't officially exist, 12ga shell casings are ubiquitous as hell, much moreso than custom brass that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

The more we started talking about it, the more it sounded like it might actually be possible to build for real. It doesn't have a stock, so it wouldn't fall under SBS in most jurisdictions (except maybe California... those guys are nuts), it wouldn't fall under breeching weapon either, so probably just get lumped into AOW. Obviously no human would be able to fire the damn thing without breaking their wrist, but I was wondering if it might be possible to build. It'd probably need an extended barrel (for a pistol) to make sure enough of the powder burns before it leaves to have the muzzle velocity you'd want, which might hamper quick-draws. Shotgun shells are pretty low on the bore pressure so the classic problem involving the revolver chambers would be less of a problem. It would almost have to be smoothbore, which means its accuracy outside fifty feet is pretty much crap, but would further reduce bore pressure issues.

I dunno, from an engineering perspective, you think it would be feasible? I bet Hellboy wouldn't mind one...
It's available in 12-guage, so the 'core guts' of the revolver in question are there already, just would need a custom grip and customized barrel.



Heck a few prototypes based around making a minimal-sized door-breaching gun out of it have even been spotted:



That fit your bill?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 19th, 2014, 2:46 pm

November 21st, 2017, 3:41 pm #6

Last post was me, sorry about that.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 24th, 2017, 1:35 am

November 21st, 2017, 4:17 pm #7

Despite being called an Rsh-12, it actually fires 12.7x55mm... in other words, the same .50 rounds the Desert Eagle fires.

This would fire something with roughly 50% more diameter.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 24th, 2017, 1:35 am

November 21st, 2017, 4:21 pm #8

It's available in 12-guage, so the 'core guts' of the revolver in question are there already, just would need a custom grip and customized barrel.



Heck a few prototypes based around making a minimal-sized door-breaching gun out of it have even been spotted:



That fit your bill?
That's got a stock, which would make it SBS anywhere in the states, so you'd basically have to drop that, basically the entire after section and build the custom grip. The other is that it's only a five-shot rather than six, and it's a side-swing rather than break-forward, and the barrel looks like at least carbine-length, which kind of defeats the purpose of a revolver.

But that's starting to wander in the right direction
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 11th, 2014, 4:45 pm

November 21st, 2017, 5:15 pm #9

Some friends of mine and I were writing a fictional novel set in modern day with supernatural aspects to it, and were trying to come up with a weapon for a certain character. A handgun, to be specific. However, the fellow in question was seven foot tall with fists like ham hocks, and even an M1911A1 would look like a Mauser if you just built up the grip. So, since he needed an outsized handgrip anyway, he went to his friends to see about getting a bigger boom while they were at it.

After some discussion about the difficulties in making custom brass bigger than .50 because that's when it stops becoming bullets and starts becoming shells, and the impracticality of setting up a machine shop to produce custom brass for a single handgun found nowhere else in the world, they were looking for alternates when his eyes lit upon a 12ga shotgun shell. After some discussion, a weapon evolved. A six-chambered break-forward (like a Webley or a .38 special) twelve gage 2-1/4" revolver, double action. On paper, it seems like a practical weapon for the fellow, since his wrists and strength are well off the human charts and can handle the recoil such a weapon would produce. Slugs would... well, it's basically a .75 revolver, take a bloody guess. That's mostly for 'big game', something that NEEDS an elephant gun just to get its attention. Standard 00 Buckshot ought to do well for hall-sweeping and general usage. You can do custom loads to fit any weaknesses the monster of the week might have. And since he's working with an MIB-like organization that doesn't officially exist, 12ga shell casings are ubiquitous as hell, much moreso than custom brass that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

The more we started talking about it, the more it sounded like it might actually be possible to build for real. It doesn't have a stock, so it wouldn't fall under SBS in most jurisdictions (except maybe California... those guys are nuts), it wouldn't fall under breeching weapon either, so probably just get lumped into AOW. Obviously no human would be able to fire the damn thing without breaking their wrist, but I was wondering if it might be possible to build. It'd probably need an extended barrel (for a pistol) to make sure enough of the powder burns before it leaves to have the muzzle velocity you'd want, which might hamper quick-draws. Shotgun shells are pretty low on the bore pressure so the classic problem involving the revolver chambers would be less of a problem. It would almost have to be smoothbore, which means its accuracy outside fifty feet is pretty much crap, but would further reduce bore pressure issues.

I dunno, from an engineering perspective, you think it would be feasible? I bet Hellboy wouldn't mind one...
There a reloaders that form their own brass from existing cartridges. A somewhat standard example of this is taking spent .223 Remington or .556 NATO brass, cutting it a little bit shorter, and re-forming it to .300 Blackout. This can be done at home, without setting up a whole new ammunition production facility.

For your fictional cartridge, you could start with a case from a larger rifle round, such as a .416 Barrett, or even .50BMG, and form it into your own fictional load. Look up ".950 JDJ" if you want to see something that Hellboy might shoot. It is a shortened .50BMG case with a solid brass 95 caliber bullet.

As far as NFA laws go, there are both "gotchyas" and "loopholes," in addition to how the laws are commonly interpreted. The Taurus Judge fires .410 shotgun shells, but it isn't an AOW or SBS, because it has a rifled barrel and is really chambered in .45LC, but with long chambers. The Mossberg Shockwave and Remington TAC-14 are not SBS or AOWs, even though they both have 14" smoothbore 12 gauge barrels, but instead fall into a somewhat nebulous "firearm" category, because they have an overall length greater than 26" and don't have a stock. The .950 JDJ isn't a "destructive device," simply due to the fact that it was granted a "sporting" exemption by the ATF.

Even with that in mind, legally owning an NFA firearm isn't as hard to do as some make it seem. It is just a matter of submitting extra forms, a $200 check, and an indefinite waiting period for an examiner to finally get to your paperwork (might be three months, might be three years).
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 17th, 2015, 1:22 pm

November 21st, 2017, 5:17 pm #10

Some friends of mine and I were writing a fictional novel set in modern day with supernatural aspects to it, and were trying to come up with a weapon for a certain character. A handgun, to be specific. However, the fellow in question was seven foot tall with fists like ham hocks, and even an M1911A1 would look like a Mauser if you just built up the grip. So, since he needed an outsized handgrip anyway, he went to his friends to see about getting a bigger boom while they were at it.

After some discussion about the difficulties in making custom brass bigger than .50 because that's when it stops becoming bullets and starts becoming shells, and the impracticality of setting up a machine shop to produce custom brass for a single handgun found nowhere else in the world, they were looking for alternates when his eyes lit upon a 12ga shotgun shell. After some discussion, a weapon evolved. A six-chambered break-forward (like a Webley or a .38 special) twelve gage 2-1/4" revolver, double action. On paper, it seems like a practical weapon for the fellow, since his wrists and strength are well off the human charts and can handle the recoil such a weapon would produce. Slugs would... well, it's basically a .75 revolver, take a bloody guess. That's mostly for 'big game', something that NEEDS an elephant gun just to get its attention. Standard 00 Buckshot ought to do well for hall-sweeping and general usage. You can do custom loads to fit any weaknesses the monster of the week might have. And since he's working with an MIB-like organization that doesn't officially exist, 12ga shell casings are ubiquitous as hell, much moreso than custom brass that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

The more we started talking about it, the more it sounded like it might actually be possible to build for real. It doesn't have a stock, so it wouldn't fall under SBS in most jurisdictions (except maybe California... those guys are nuts), it wouldn't fall under breeching weapon either, so probably just get lumped into AOW. Obviously no human would be able to fire the damn thing without breaking their wrist, but I was wondering if it might be possible to build. It'd probably need an extended barrel (for a pistol) to make sure enough of the powder burns before it leaves to have the muzzle velocity you'd want, which might hamper quick-draws. Shotgun shells are pretty low on the bore pressure so the classic problem involving the revolver chambers would be less of a problem. It would almost have to be smoothbore, which means its accuracy outside fifty feet is pretty much crap, but would further reduce bore pressure issues.

I dunno, from an engineering perspective, you think it would be feasible? I bet Hellboy wouldn't mind one...
A revolver version of a Mossberg Shockwave is basically what I'm reading here. And the Shockwave is doing a good job of disproving the myths about how hard it is to shoot a shotgun with a non-stocked grip. So for your fictional version, you could probably even get away with having a normal human fire it once or twice (like Han shooting Chewie's bowcaster in TFA).

Also, you've kind of described Leon McNichol's Earthshaker from Bubblegum Crisis.

Quote
Like
Share