So whatever happened to the old paintball myths?

So whatever happened to the old paintball myths?

Doc Nickel
Doc Nickel

June 19th, 2011, 8:02 am #1

I was having a wonderful conversation with an old PB buddy this evening, as I fixed a marker I haven't seen in over a decade, and the subject came up, in a roundabout way, of some of the old myths.

Which got me thinking, and I realized I haven't seen much about those old myths in... well, a very long time.

Now, that's not saying much. I don't visit very many other PB forums, and when I do, it's typically only in response to a specific thread or topic. Long gone are the days I could spend two or three hours a day going through the various owners' groups and other boards...

So I suppose I can't really say what or how much discussion is going on. Do the kids (meaning any player that's joined the sport in the last two or three years) still hype up this gun or that marker because it's "low pressure"? Does anyone still include or sell a "venturi" bolt?

Last I heard, Hammerhead was still fobbing some sort of rifling with their barrels, but really, the last two gobbledeygook sales pitches I can recall was SP's "seal forward" bolts (which was what, eight years ago now?) and Eclipse's "magnetic" wristbands a year or two ago.

Does anyone still try to claim barrel porting improves range or accuracy? Or that one gun "shoots further" than another? Has anyone tried coming out with yet another "new" rifled barrel?

Or for that matter, how about barrel coatings? I remember back in the day when brass was said to be the best (apparently just because it was brass) while manufacturers tried chrome, hard chrome, nickel, ceramic coatings, teflon-impregnated ceramic, Type III hardcoat anodizing, you name it.

Now it seems everyone just makes plain color-anodized 2-piece barrels.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So am I just insulated off in my own little world here, or have the kids really left some of those old myths behind?

Doc.
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 4:54 pm

June 19th, 2011, 1:23 pm #2

IIRC that was the last BIG bit of snake oil that came around.

-Hans
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Tohri
Tohri

June 19th, 2011, 3:16 pm #3

I was having a wonderful conversation with an old PB buddy this evening, as I fixed a marker I haven't seen in over a decade, and the subject came up, in a roundabout way, of some of the old myths.

Which got me thinking, and I realized I haven't seen much about those old myths in... well, a very long time.

Now, that's not saying much. I don't visit very many other PB forums, and when I do, it's typically only in response to a specific thread or topic. Long gone are the days I could spend two or three hours a day going through the various owners' groups and other boards...

So I suppose I can't really say what or how much discussion is going on. Do the kids (meaning any player that's joined the sport in the last two or three years) still hype up this gun or that marker because it's "low pressure"? Does anyone still include or sell a "venturi" bolt?

Last I heard, Hammerhead was still fobbing some sort of rifling with their barrels, but really, the last two gobbledeygook sales pitches I can recall was SP's "seal forward" bolts (which was what, eight years ago now?) and Eclipse's "magnetic" wristbands a year or two ago.

Does anyone still try to claim barrel porting improves range or accuracy? Or that one gun "shoots further" than another? Has anyone tried coming out with yet another "new" rifled barrel?

Or for that matter, how about barrel coatings? I remember back in the day when brass was said to be the best (apparently just because it was brass) while manufacturers tried chrome, hard chrome, nickel, ceramic coatings, teflon-impregnated ceramic, Type III hardcoat anodizing, you name it.

Now it seems everyone just makes plain color-anodized 2-piece barrels.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So am I just insulated off in my own little world here, or have the kids really left some of those old myths behind?

Doc.
When a technology is in it's infancy up through it's troubled teenager days, just about anyone can come along with a nicely made part and make wild claims about it's performance just because, well, it was a reasonably well made part and people would see Some Effect.
It's a very tech specific placebo effect.

Look what happened to to the venerable (Vulnerable) autococker line: Started out as a bug ridden, barely functional gun that everybody LOVED because you could bring up the performance a million fold by buying aftermarket parts. But when WGP started selling a cocker that was more or less perfect from the factory, nobody wanted them. All of a sudden, alllll the parts they were told would bring up their game and make their gun a thousand times more accurate did nothing. Or even hurt performance over the stock part!

The second major hit after that was Every Other gun company basically selling more or less perfect guns right off the start. So now what? If you're a magical barrel salesman, your options are limited. Worse if you're a magical wiget salesman, because the gun already has a magic widget. All of them do.

Now we're faced with a market flooded with guns that have perfect specs right off the start, get accuracy and efficiency that we could only have dreamed about ten years ago, and single tube receivers that have a minimum size defined by the size of the human hand more than technology. They've got eyes, they've got every firing mode known to man, and they weigh less than the hopper you're putting on top.

TLDR: Manufacturers built the magic widgets into the stock gun, and discarded the 'myth' wrapper. Anything that actually worked became stock, anything that didn't became obsolete.
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Ben360
Ben360

June 19th, 2011, 4:06 pm #4

I was having a wonderful conversation with an old PB buddy this evening, as I fixed a marker I haven't seen in over a decade, and the subject came up, in a roundabout way, of some of the old myths.

Which got me thinking, and I realized I haven't seen much about those old myths in... well, a very long time.

Now, that's not saying much. I don't visit very many other PB forums, and when I do, it's typically only in response to a specific thread or topic. Long gone are the days I could spend two or three hours a day going through the various owners' groups and other boards...

So I suppose I can't really say what or how much discussion is going on. Do the kids (meaning any player that's joined the sport in the last two or three years) still hype up this gun or that marker because it's "low pressure"? Does anyone still include or sell a "venturi" bolt?

Last I heard, Hammerhead was still fobbing some sort of rifling with their barrels, but really, the last two gobbledeygook sales pitches I can recall was SP's "seal forward" bolts (which was what, eight years ago now?) and Eclipse's "magnetic" wristbands a year or two ago.

Does anyone still try to claim barrel porting improves range or accuracy? Or that one gun "shoots further" than another? Has anyone tried coming out with yet another "new" rifled barrel?

Or for that matter, how about barrel coatings? I remember back in the day when brass was said to be the best (apparently just because it was brass) while manufacturers tried chrome, hard chrome, nickel, ceramic coatings, teflon-impregnated ceramic, Type III hardcoat anodizing, you name it.

Now it seems everyone just makes plain color-anodized 2-piece barrels.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So am I just insulated off in my own little world here, or have the kids really left some of those old myths behind?

Doc.
There are a couple new ones out there. You pointed out the Hammerhead. There's also Jack Rice at Alien saying their sweep bolt increasing range and accuracy. I mostly just see implied statements and marketing gimmicks.

The same goes for older myths. No longer explicitly stated... only implied..
* Marker X is more accurate than marker Y.
* Kick in any recent marker is enough to effect accuracy.
* More milling/machining and metal parts equates to a better quality product.
* Tippmann still creates a quality product worth the price tag by today's standards.
* New guns are better because they are new, obviously. This would be backwards for the MCB crowd, but just as much of a myth.
* Barrels and PCBs are worth more than $30 per and the stock ones are garbage.
* A new type of bolt/valve system is obviously superior. I hear the FASOR is making a comeback
* There's a specific way you are supposed to play paintball and a specific marker you are supposed to use. This still apparently applies to woodsball, pump players and "wannabe in a tournament" players.
*

Just thought of a new myth - 50 cal has no place in paintball and/or 50 cal will hurt paintball in some way.
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Austin J
Austin J

June 19th, 2011, 6:58 pm #5

I was having a wonderful conversation with an old PB buddy this evening, as I fixed a marker I haven't seen in over a decade, and the subject came up, in a roundabout way, of some of the old myths.

Which got me thinking, and I realized I haven't seen much about those old myths in... well, a very long time.

Now, that's not saying much. I don't visit very many other PB forums, and when I do, it's typically only in response to a specific thread or topic. Long gone are the days I could spend two or three hours a day going through the various owners' groups and other boards...

So I suppose I can't really say what or how much discussion is going on. Do the kids (meaning any player that's joined the sport in the last two or three years) still hype up this gun or that marker because it's "low pressure"? Does anyone still include or sell a "venturi" bolt?

Last I heard, Hammerhead was still fobbing some sort of rifling with their barrels, but really, the last two gobbledeygook sales pitches I can recall was SP's "seal forward" bolts (which was what, eight years ago now?) and Eclipse's "magnetic" wristbands a year or two ago.

Does anyone still try to claim barrel porting improves range or accuracy? Or that one gun "shoots further" than another? Has anyone tried coming out with yet another "new" rifled barrel?

Or for that matter, how about barrel coatings? I remember back in the day when brass was said to be the best (apparently just because it was brass) while manufacturers tried chrome, hard chrome, nickel, ceramic coatings, teflon-impregnated ceramic, Type III hardcoat anodizing, you name it.

Now it seems everyone just makes plain color-anodized 2-piece barrels.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So am I just insulated off in my own little world here, or have the kids really left some of those old myths behind?

Doc.
But when buying Cocker parts I sitll see the Venturi bolt thing and what not around.
Rifled barrels are hard to say. I mean, I know physics wise it imparts wierdly on a paintball but maybe simply because I haven't tried a "good" barrel. OR. The barrel itself with my iFit works well so the rifling seems to do better. I could be wrong.

What I want is an unported barrel. a 13" barrel isn't 13 when half of it is ported.
I don't care about loud noises ( I do when I want to but half the time I love the popping sounds).

I have a barrel back that is about 6" long. Thus has no porting and goes right after my iFit kit and it is so fun to shoot.

The only concept that I could really "believe" from low pressure was that it was gentle on a ball. Is that true at all?.

I don't get the hype with carbon fiber barrels too and self cleaning. I own one only because I got it for $40 but I find i dont use it much. The bore is kind of big and a good quarter of it is ported.
I don't mind much use in it as the current barrel I use from Milsig runs way better.

I even tried using it in my mag-fed marker and it didnt go that well.

I wish I cold get someone to make a unported barrel. Super cannon hahahaha.
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Austin J
Austin J

June 19th, 2011, 7:03 pm #6

There are a couple new ones out there. You pointed out the Hammerhead. There's also Jack Rice at Alien saying their sweep bolt increasing range and accuracy. I mostly just see implied statements and marketing gimmicks.

The same goes for older myths. No longer explicitly stated... only implied..
* Marker X is more accurate than marker Y.
* Kick in any recent marker is enough to effect accuracy.
* More milling/machining and metal parts equates to a better quality product.
* Tippmann still creates a quality product worth the price tag by today's standards.
* New guns are better because they are new, obviously. This would be backwards for the MCB crowd, but just as much of a myth.
* Barrels and PCBs are worth more than $30 per and the stock ones are garbage.
* A new type of bolt/valve system is obviously superior. I hear the FASOR is making a comeback
* There's a specific way you are supposed to play paintball and a specific marker you are supposed to use. This still apparently applies to woodsball, pump players and "wannabe in a tournament" players.
*

Just thought of a new myth - 50 cal has no place in paintball and/or 50 cal will hurt paintball in some way.
I built my Pump out of collected parts and other things. Heck, my the barrel I have on it (and the barrel kit) goes through an adapter!

Still kicking couple butts out there on the field but maybe I just haven't met "super" good players....I don't know.

Posh, a specific way?. If one plays a style on their own and get used to it and know the in and outs. It will work.
I play mag-fed and pump and its a challenge but its so different then just slinging paint.

-Austin J

P.S. I get flabbergassed seeing a 14 year old with like a $600 speedball marker and its like. =\.

Or how I met this kid who was getting fed up with his Autococker cause it was having issues with it (he put it together sorta).

I've been patiently fixing my pump for 4 months now and finally discovered that the valve pin was too long. Not from a standard cocker. At the time I had no part to compare it to so I wasn't the wiser.
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Doc Nickel
Doc Nickel

June 19th, 2011, 8:18 pm #7

IIRC that was the last BIG bit of snake oil that came around.

-Hans
In large part because .50 never really showed up, up here. I never got in any .50 guns for modding, at least in any significant numbers, I only got a few requests for parts (mostly barrels, naturally) and none of the stores even bothered to carry paint.

As far as I was concerned, it was dead the minute they released it, and the only reason it got as much traction as it did, was because SP was spending millions pushing it.

But yeah, I forgot about that one.

Doc.
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Tenacious221
Tenacious221

June 19th, 2011, 10:44 pm #8

I was having a wonderful conversation with an old PB buddy this evening, as I fixed a marker I haven't seen in over a decade, and the subject came up, in a roundabout way, of some of the old myths.

Which got me thinking, and I realized I haven't seen much about those old myths in... well, a very long time.

Now, that's not saying much. I don't visit very many other PB forums, and when I do, it's typically only in response to a specific thread or topic. Long gone are the days I could spend two or three hours a day going through the various owners' groups and other boards...

So I suppose I can't really say what or how much discussion is going on. Do the kids (meaning any player that's joined the sport in the last two or three years) still hype up this gun or that marker because it's "low pressure"? Does anyone still include or sell a "venturi" bolt?

Last I heard, Hammerhead was still fobbing some sort of rifling with their barrels, but really, the last two gobbledeygook sales pitches I can recall was SP's "seal forward" bolts (which was what, eight years ago now?) and Eclipse's "magnetic" wristbands a year or two ago.

Does anyone still try to claim barrel porting improves range or accuracy? Or that one gun "shoots further" than another? Has anyone tried coming out with yet another "new" rifled barrel?

Or for that matter, how about barrel coatings? I remember back in the day when brass was said to be the best (apparently just because it was brass) while manufacturers tried chrome, hard chrome, nickel, ceramic coatings, teflon-impregnated ceramic, Type III hardcoat anodizing, you name it.

Now it seems everyone just makes plain color-anodized 2-piece barrels.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So am I just insulated off in my own little world here, or have the kids really left some of those old myths behind?

Doc.
With the Alien bolts that supposedly gave you more range by only putting air on the bottom of the ball as it was shot...

Load of crap of course...heck...there was even a "proof" video done by someone at the company where he claimed better range AND accuracy and had some shooting demos where they showed shooting and then cut to the target (not suspicious at all LOL)

-Ten
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Doc Nickel
Doc Nickel

June 19th, 2011, 11:11 pm #9

But when buying Cocker parts I sitll see the Venturi bolt thing and what not around.
Rifled barrels are hard to say. I mean, I know physics wise it imparts wierdly on a paintball but maybe simply because I haven't tried a "good" barrel. OR. The barrel itself with my iFit works well so the rifling seems to do better. I could be wrong.

What I want is an unported barrel. a 13" barrel isn't 13 when half of it is ported.
I don't care about loud noises ( I do when I want to but half the time I love the popping sounds).

I have a barrel back that is about 6" long. Thus has no porting and goes right after my iFit kit and it is so fun to shoot.

The only concept that I could really "believe" from low pressure was that it was gentle on a ball. Is that true at all?.

I don't get the hype with carbon fiber barrels too and self cleaning. I own one only because I got it for $40 but I find i dont use it much. The bore is kind of big and a good quarter of it is ported.
I don't mind much use in it as the current barrel I use from Milsig runs way better.

I even tried using it in my mag-fed marker and it didnt go that well.

I wish I cold get someone to make a unported barrel. Super cannon hahahaha.
Yep, the High Pressure vs. Low Pressure thing was one of the big ones, started by- naturally- SP with their original PneuVentures Shocker. Which operated at such a low pressure in large part because the solenoids available at the time only had a 150 psi operating limit. The gun was, for the most part, designed around them- the gun had to work that low, else they wouldn't have been able to make it electric.

SP of course ran with it, and their marketing department came up with lots of marketing reasons for "low pressure", and the kids ate it up. Hell, back then, I believed it!

But today we know it's not true. Not the range part, not the accuracy part, and not the "gentleness on the ball" part.

The classic example that I've been using for over ten years now is the Shocker vs. the Phantom.

The Shocker (the old "shoebox" 4x4 when I started using the comparison) ran about 180 psi, while the Phantom runs straight CO2, or about 800 psi. That's about as wide a difference as you can get in a paintball gun- though we once fed 1,100 psi (!) to a PGP, just to see what would happen.

Anyway, it's pretty simple: If LP did, in fact, improve range and accuracy, and was "gentler" on the ball, then the Phantom would have a reputation as being inaccurate, short ranged, and a ball-breaker.

None of those are true, of course- the Phantom is rightly admired as being very accurate, not known to break paint, and physics alone tells us range is a nonissue.

Doc.
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Doc Nickel
Doc Nickel

June 19th, 2011, 11:15 pm #10

With the Alien bolts that supposedly gave you more range by only putting air on the bottom of the ball as it was shot...

Load of crap of course...heck...there was even a "proof" video done by someone at the company where he claimed better range AND accuracy and had some shooting demos where they showed shooting and then cut to the target (not suspicious at all LOL)

-Ten
Technically, the "undershot" bolts can give longer range. Cooper-T sold an undershot for the VM-68 back when it was called a PMI-3, and one of the only semiautos on the market.

It does the same thing the Tippmann bananna-barrels did, make the ball "roll" counter to the direction of flight, adding lift.

The problem, of course, is that the roll is not always consistent, the seam is not always consistently aligned with the axis of the roll, and the Magnus effect lift becomes even more susceptible to crosswinds.

Meaning that yes, you get more range, but at the cost of considerably less accuracy.

Doc.
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