New Tormach machines!

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 11th, 2018, 3:30 am #21

timberwolfz28 wrote:Ditto.ย  Add in the PWC forums/FB groups.
-You misunderstand: I was referring to Tormach machines specifically. In all the boards I mentioned, at one point or another someone has piped up asking about them, and had some know-it-all respond like I said- some variant or other of "get a real mill!"

Fortunately there's usually somebody that can offer a more nuanced opinion, and of course sometimes it turns out the guy in question could either make do with a much smaller and cheaper machine like a Sherline, or would in fact be better off with a bigger production machine like a HAAS. (Or, more often than not, farming the job out to a job shop rather than trying to do it himself.)

But yeah, we see the "Mac Vs. PC" or "Mag Vs. Cocker" thing on virtually any board. I'd bet that somewhere along the lines somebody asked you why you didn't build up a Rambler or AMC engine instead of going with the bellybutton LS. ๐Ÿ˜ I see the same thing on the Olds boards, when somebody swaps in a 6.0 in place of the old 455- "Any idiot can get power from am LS, it takes a Real Man to get that power out of an Olds!" Etcetera, etcetera. ๐Ÿ˜‹

Doc.
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Joined: June 2nd, 2015, 3:34 am

June 11th, 2018, 5:06 am #22

Three-D Printers are this way as well.ย ย 

You can't be a man let alone get good results unless you are ____ as opposed to ____ which is wrong and will influence which genders you prefer to mate with.

...I think all hobbies are like this honestly.ย  :D
It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 11th, 2018, 8:51 am #23

Probable correction: I've read at least three threads in the past six or eight months about zero response to inquiries- phones aren't answered and emails not returned- on two different forums, about Charter Oak, but their website is still up and has a 2018 copyright date, so I'm probably wrong on that part.

Doc.
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Joined: May 11th, 2004, 4:09 am

June 11th, 2018, 11:34 am #24

DocsMachine wrote:
timberwolfz28 wrote:Ditto.ย  Add in the PWC forums/FB groups.
-You misunderstand: I was referring to Tormach machines specifically. In all the boards I mentioned, at one point or another someone has piped up asking about them, and had some know-it-all respond like I said- some variant or other of "get a real mill!"
no... I think I'm with you... this is to what I was referring:
DocsMachine wrote: It's like some newbie who is thinking about playing his first game of paintball asking what kind of marker he should get, and having some pro player tell him he basically can't play unless he buys a custom-anodized team-branded Eclipse CS2.
My point was pretty irrelevant to the conversation though, to be fair. ;)

DocsMachine wrote:Fortunately there's usually somebody that can offer a more nuanced opinion, and of course sometimes it turns out the guy in question could either make do with a much smaller and cheaper machine like a Sherline, or would in fact be better off with a bigger production machine like a HAAS. (Or, more often than not, farming the job out to a job shop rather than trying to do it himself.)

But yeah, we see the "Mac Vs. PC" or "Mag Vs. Cocker" thing on virtually any board. I'd bet that somewhere along the lines somebody asked you why you didn't build up a Rambler or AMC engine instead of going with the bellybutton LS. ๐Ÿ˜ I see the same thing on the Olds boards, when somebody swaps in a 6.0 in place of the old 455- "Any idiot can get power from am LS, it takes a Real Man to get that power out of an Olds!" Etcetera, etcetera. ๐Ÿ˜‹

Doc.
yeah, I've sparred with more than my fair share of people asking/ complaining about me not using an AMC engine. Funny thing is, a lot of those guys will also be quick to point out that my Rambler is NOT an AMC ๐Ÿ˜œ
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Joined: July 28th, 2016, 7:48 pm

June 11th, 2018, 3:13 pm #25

DocsMachine wrote: Probable correction: I've read at least three threads in the past six or eight months about zero response to inquiries- phones aren't answered and emails not returned- on two different forums, about Charter Oak, but their website is still up and has a 2018 copyright date, so I'm probably wrong on that part.

Doc.
Often websites use a wildcard for the date, so that the copyright is "always" up to date.


My hackerspace just bought a midsize home type tormach, with tool changer.ย  It's... much bigger than you'd imagine.ย  like, it takes up the space of your bridgeport inย  back there, but ti's rectangular, and has a lot less travel.ย ย 

... I can't wait for them to get it running.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 11th, 2018, 7:07 pm #26

yeah, I've sparred with more than my fair share of people asking/ complaining about me not using an AMC engine. Funny thing is, a lot of those guys will also be quick to point out that my Rambler is NOT an AMC
-Yeah, the Chevy guys love to brag that "their" engines get put into everything- '32 Fords, GTOs, Mustangs, Javelins, old Buicks, that Nash Metropolitan, you name it- but holy crap do you hear the howls of "Sacrelige!" when somebody drops a new Ford Coyote into an early Camaro, or transplants a Viper V10 into a C5 Corvette. ๐Ÿ˜
Often websites use a wildcard for the date, so that the copyright is "always" up to date.
-Entirely possible, but I still wanted to add that correction, otherwise I'm basically just spreading an internet rumor.
My hackerspace just bought a midsize home type tormach, with tool changer.ย  It's... much bigger than you'd imagine.ย  like, it takes up the space of your bridgeport inย  back there, but ti's rectangular, and has a lot less travel.
-Technically that's a Spanish-made Exacto, and it's about 30% bigger than a typical Bridgeport. It's actually kind of a problem- it doesn't look like it in that wide-angle-distorted photo, and I'm right at six feet, but it's kind of a stretch for me to reach the drawbar hex.

And yes, I already have a pretty good idea on how big the Tormachs are. Besides comparing them to operators in videos, I got the rough measurements off their website, and marked it off in the shop- or compared them to the sizes of other machines.

If, as I said, I got rid of the Exacto, a 770 complete with coolant enclosure would easily fit in that space, and have spare room to boot. But as I said, it's been very handy having two working vertical mills, and I may be getting some contract work in that may almost require me to have a free machine at almost all times, so I'm not so sure about selling it anymore.

But then, where to put whatever new machine I get? There simply ain't no other place. ๐Ÿ˜“

Doc.
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Joined: October 24th, 2014, 10:51 pm

June 11th, 2018, 7:29 pm #27

...You wanna see someone make a Tormach sit up and dance?

John Saunders
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Joined: September 12th, 2014, 3:32 am

June 11th, 2018, 7:55 pm #28

DocsMachine wrote:
yeah, I've sparred with more than my fair share of people asking/ complaining about me not using an AMC engine. Funny thing is, a lot of those guys will also be quick to point out that my Rambler is NOT an AMC
-Yeah, the Chevy guys love to brag that "their" engines get put into everything- '32 Fords, GTOs, Mustangs, Javelins, old Buicks, that Nash Metropolitan, you name it- but holy crap do you hear the howls of "Sacrelige!" when somebody drops a new Ford Coyote into an early Camaro, or transplants a Viper V10 into a C5 Corvette. ๐Ÿ˜
Then there's the guy who took an old Model A and in planted a BMW engine into it whilst rebuilding it:ย http://www.stanceworks.com/2013/05/mike ... w-model-a/
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Joined: October 26th, 2015, 2:44 pm

June 12th, 2018, 3:33 am #29

DocsMachine wrote: And three, most of the "problems" you cite aren't really 'problems', per se`, they're just features you dislike. They may be open-loop, but like 'em or not, steppers work, they're reliable, and they're inexpensive. Yes, push 'em too hard and you'll lose steps. That's a given. Feed 'em a rate they're happy with, and they'll run all day. Ditto the R8/TTS, and the dovetails.

Everything's a tradeoff. I was looking at CNC lathes, and I think it was Charter Oak had a nice one. About the same price as the Tormach, but had a few other features I liked- I believe a higher top speed for one. But that machine had a spindle bore of just over 3/4"- that was a deal breaker for a lathe. I gotta be able to run 5C.
I agree that it's a sliding scale of "what works and what doesn't" but I'm finding it super awkward that you keep negating and downplaying my tales of woe having no firsthand experience with it. Earlier I described a situation where the 1/4" spotdrill I was using to create a chamfer had literally zero cutting force exerted on it, with a simple 4" vise on the mill table, feeding at 25 inch-per-minute, yet the motors still found a way to miss steps. You call it an open loop "feature" but to me it's quite black and white since this situation is babying the machine and using it for literally the lightest-duty operation possible. I bring the same code over to my 1981 Centroid servo knee mill and life is good, and it runs parts for the entire day. It's not operator error, it's not programming, it's not me skimping on tools (other than the Tormach). And it's why that machine now gathers dust.

I'll give you one thing though, you're probably right about PathPilot being preferable, at least for conversational programming. For controlling the machine it's identical to Mach3, but PathPilot is at least intended specifically for the Tormach hardware so that's cool I suppose. With my 770 you can jog the machine outside of its own work envelope and cause all kinds of alarms; a byproduct of open-source controller software that isn't catered for anything in particular. But hey since you mentioned it, both Skyfire and Syil have industrial control upgrades available, maybe we'll get that on the existing tormachs in a couple years.

Good luck!
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 12th, 2018, 5:57 am #30

Ydna-zds wrote:I agree that it's a sliding scale of "what works and what doesn't" but I'm finding it super awkward that you keep negating and downplaying my tales of woe having no firsthand experience with it.
-Mainly because I hear the same thing from virtually all quarters. This guy's Tormach breaks down, that guy's Charter Oak dies, this other fellow's Syil glitches, those guys' Sherlines crap out, you name it. I'm a regular on the Centoid Acorn board, and there have been half a dozen tales of that board- not a whole machine, just a board- glitching in some way, shape or form.

If I only bought the machine that never once failed or broke down or had an issue, I'd have to buy... well, a friggin' hammer or something. ๐Ÿ˜

No matter what machine I buy, there's a risk I either get a lemon, or I have a crash, or some random part in the board pops and idles the whole mess. That's true even of a "professional" machine.

So what I have to do is go by an overall track record, and reports of how the company stands by their product. And out of all those you've suggested, Tormach is head and shoulders above them.
Earlier I described a situation where the 1/4" spotdrill I was using to create a chamfer had literally zero cutting force exerted on it, with a simple 4" vise on the mill table, feeding at 25 inch-per-minute, yet the motors still found a way to miss steps. You call it an open loop "feature" but to me it's quite black and white since this situation is babying the machine and using it for literally the lightest-duty operation possible.
-What I call that is an actual electronic or mechanical error- that is, a fault, not an inherent property of the machine. This guy doesn't seem to be having any trouble with fairly heavy cuts (apart from the chatter due to his poor setup) which tells me that if you're having difficulties with a near-zero-chipload cut, then you've got a loose ballnut, loose thrust bearing, a loose gib, an issue with the stepper driver, or some other problem that needs to be fixed.

I'm not entirely discounting your experience, I'm just weighing it against the rest of my data.
Doc.
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