Attn: 3D printing gurus...!

Attn: 3D printing gurus...!

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

October 4th, 2017, 6:53 am #1

Quick question: How easy is it to enclose an object with a printer? Or, perhaps more descriptively, is it possible to print around a "core", an object to be embedded permanently into the printed object?

The idea here is that one could print an all-new paintball gun body- a functional body- if you could first produce an aluminum 'core' that would hold the pressure. On something like a 'Cocker, you'd just need to develop some sort of valve chamber. On a spoolvalve gun, like a Shocker, you'd need a sleeve, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what if one printed the first third of the body, set the aluminum core in place (perhaps suitably roughed so the plastic adheres well, and possibly even heated slightly so it embeds solidly in the first half) and then proceed to print the rest of the body over and around it, sealing it in.

First and foremost, I can see clearances would certainly be an issue- the print head would have to be programmed to "clear" the additional body volume as it prints, and the core would have to be fairly precisely placed so the print head didn't "crash" against it as it extrudes.

But what I don't know is how well the plastic would adhere to the core piece, whether or not roughing the surface matters (IE, sandblasting) or of the core would produce "cold shuts" where the filament cools to quickly to properly adhere to the previous layer.

This is, at the moment, strictly a thought experiment. I have no project in mind, though I have been toying with the idea of picking up a decent off-the-shelf printer, partly for the general CNC/CAD-modelling practice, and partly for the potential of prototyping parts for things like the forthcoming 'Duke' lever-action.

Buddy of mine has a new Prusa, and I see the 3rd gen of that model is about to be released. if the street price of the new one isn't much more than the old one, I was thinking of getting one. Yeah, there's cheaper ones on the market, but I'm told the Prusa has some handy user-friendly aspects, like self-levelling and a fairly simple interface.

Any opinions on that one?

Doc.
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Joined: September 11th, 2014, 5:40 pm

October 4th, 2017, 6:57 am #2

And the problem with a scheme like this is that most printers i know off have the print head in the area you want the alu pressure hull to be in...

if you have the hull horizontally aligned it would be less of an issue but its probably easier to just slide it in from one end and then epoxy it in place or something after the print is finished...
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Joined: October 1st, 2014, 2:49 pm

October 4th, 2017, 12:40 pm #3

Quick question: How easy is it to enclose an object with a printer? Or, perhaps more descriptively, is it possible to print around a "core", an object to be embedded permanently into the printed object?

The idea here is that one could print an all-new paintball gun body- a functional body- if you could first produce an aluminum 'core' that would hold the pressure. On something like a 'Cocker, you'd just need to develop some sort of valve chamber. On a spoolvalve gun, like a Shocker, you'd need a sleeve, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what if one printed the first third of the body, set the aluminum core in place (perhaps suitably roughed so the plastic adheres well, and possibly even heated slightly so it embeds solidly in the first half) and then proceed to print the rest of the body over and around it, sealing it in.

First and foremost, I can see clearances would certainly be an issue- the print head would have to be programmed to "clear" the additional body volume as it prints, and the core would have to be fairly precisely placed so the print head didn't "crash" against it as it extrudes.

But what I don't know is how well the plastic would adhere to the core piece, whether or not roughing the surface matters (IE, sandblasting) or of the core would produce "cold shuts" where the filament cools to quickly to properly adhere to the previous layer.

This is, at the moment, strictly a thought experiment. I have no project in mind, though I have been toying with the idea of picking up a decent off-the-shelf printer, partly for the general CNC/CAD-modelling practice, and partly for the potential of prototyping parts for things like the forthcoming 'Duke' lever-action.

Buddy of mine has a new Prusa, and I see the 3rd gen of that model is about to be released. if the street price of the new one isn't much more than the old one, I was thinking of getting one. Yeah, there's cheaper ones on the market, but I'm told the Prusa has some handy user-friendly aspects, like self-levelling and a fairly simple interface.

Any opinions on that one?

Doc.
We have a Ultimaker 2+ Extended that we use to prototype alum extrusion shapes constantly. Here are the things I'm not sure how you would get around.

1) Printer head collisions with the aluminum part. While I'm sure there is some way to get around this if you write your own gcode to control the printer, normal slicer applications don't have any (that i know of) provisions for avoiding hitting stuff that it didn't print. I would suggest finding ways to design the part so the aluminum sleeve can slide into the body post printing.

2) Adhesion is going to vary by the material your printing with. ABS is probably ideal in terms of strength, PSI rating etc. Its also a pain in the ass to print. Roughing up materials might help. Once you get into exotic materials such as printable carbon fiber stuff I have no idea.

Past these two things, its super useful. I have printed up eye covers for guns, triggers etc for paintball stuff. Work great, super light weight. If you have more questions or want to run a design past us to see if we see anything wrong with it feel free to email me.
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Joined: October 15th, 2015, 1:31 pm

October 4th, 2017, 5:07 pm #4

Quick question: How easy is it to enclose an object with a printer? Or, perhaps more descriptively, is it possible to print around a "core", an object to be embedded permanently into the printed object?

The idea here is that one could print an all-new paintball gun body- a functional body- if you could first produce an aluminum 'core' that would hold the pressure. On something like a 'Cocker, you'd just need to develop some sort of valve chamber. On a spoolvalve gun, like a Shocker, you'd need a sleeve, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what if one printed the first third of the body, set the aluminum core in place (perhaps suitably roughed so the plastic adheres well, and possibly even heated slightly so it embeds solidly in the first half) and then proceed to print the rest of the body over and around it, sealing it in.

First and foremost, I can see clearances would certainly be an issue- the print head would have to be programmed to "clear" the additional body volume as it prints, and the core would have to be fairly precisely placed so the print head didn't "crash" against it as it extrudes.

But what I don't know is how well the plastic would adhere to the core piece, whether or not roughing the surface matters (IE, sandblasting) or of the core would produce "cold shuts" where the filament cools to quickly to properly adhere to the previous layer.

This is, at the moment, strictly a thought experiment. I have no project in mind, though I have been toying with the idea of picking up a decent off-the-shelf printer, partly for the general CNC/CAD-modelling practice, and partly for the potential of prototyping parts for things like the forthcoming 'Duke' lever-action.

Buddy of mine has a new Prusa, and I see the 3rd gen of that model is about to be released. if the street price of the new one isn't much more than the old one, I was thinking of getting one. Yeah, there's cheaper ones on the market, but I'm told the Prusa has some handy user-friendly aspects, like self-levelling and a fairly simple interface.

Any opinions on that one?

Doc.
3d printing has at least 2 differt kinds or styles to it, fused filiment wher ethe head forces filiment thru a nozzle and stereolithography style. in your case i would think that stereolithography would work as it doesnt have the head to interfear but im not sure how to get the core in once it starts printing(not sure if you can pause riase the platfor m, add the tube then lower and restart)
2003 BIOHAZARD ELECTRO COCKER
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Joined: September 12th, 2014, 4:00 am

October 4th, 2017, 5:17 pm #5

Quick question: How easy is it to enclose an object with a printer? Or, perhaps more descriptively, is it possible to print around a "core", an object to be embedded permanently into the printed object?

The idea here is that one could print an all-new paintball gun body- a functional body- if you could first produce an aluminum 'core' that would hold the pressure. On something like a 'Cocker, you'd just need to develop some sort of valve chamber. On a spoolvalve gun, like a Shocker, you'd need a sleeve, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what if one printed the first third of the body, set the aluminum core in place (perhaps suitably roughed so the plastic adheres well, and possibly even heated slightly so it embeds solidly in the first half) and then proceed to print the rest of the body over and around it, sealing it in.

First and foremost, I can see clearances would certainly be an issue- the print head would have to be programmed to "clear" the additional body volume as it prints, and the core would have to be fairly precisely placed so the print head didn't "crash" against it as it extrudes.

But what I don't know is how well the plastic would adhere to the core piece, whether or not roughing the surface matters (IE, sandblasting) or of the core would produce "cold shuts" where the filament cools to quickly to properly adhere to the previous layer.

This is, at the moment, strictly a thought experiment. I have no project in mind, though I have been toying with the idea of picking up a decent off-the-shelf printer, partly for the general CNC/CAD-modelling practice, and partly for the potential of prototyping parts for things like the forthcoming 'Duke' lever-action.

Buddy of mine has a new Prusa, and I see the 3rd gen of that model is about to be released. if the street price of the new one isn't much more than the old one, I was thinking of getting one. Yeah, there's cheaper ones on the market, but I'm told the Prusa has some handy user-friendly aspects, like self-levelling and a fairly simple interface.

Any opinions on that one?

Doc.
I have seen this done. Or rather, I have seen the resulting part. Haven't tried it myself.

The secret is to make the insert so that it drops completely into the part you already have printed. That is, the insert has to be flush with the top of the print at the time you drop it in, or slightly below that. That way the printhead won't run into anything. This may mean bedding the insert in a thin layer of adhesive that can be squeezed out when you push the insert in.

It also means that the top of the insert needs to be flat. 3D printers don't do a good job of printing on air.

Also, while most modern printers can be paused, they will only move the printhead off to the side a bit. You won't have much room in there to work. If your printer is enclosed, and you will need that enclosure to make good prints in ABS, you have only the front opening to reach in and insert something. This could be tricky.

One warning about printers that are "self-leveling" -- they aren't. What they really do is measure the off-level bed and then compensate for that by laying down more filament in the low spots. This means the bottom won't be parallel to the top of the print. This may or may not matter to you. My opinion is that a carefully leveled bed is essential to getting a good print.



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Joined: September 12th, 2014, 3:32 am

October 4th, 2017, 5:51 pm #6

I was printing out a thumb drive case in the shape of a Minecraft wolf; Since my printer is a 3 axis FDM (the extruder head can't swivel or rotate, it's fixed facing straight down) I locked the thumb drive into the case by pausing the job after a certain amount of the print was done, placed the drive where it was supposed to go, and then resumed the job. It was a little hinky, but it worked out ok.

as far as self-leveling, you are absolutely right, at least for the 2014 generation printrbots- there's not exactly a lot of adjustment leeway for bed leveling out of the box unless you do some pretty creative mods to it. (I have a Simple Metal that I bought as a kit, then about two years later bought the heated bed and Z-Axis extension kit.)

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Joined: October 9th, 2014, 8:58 pm

October 5th, 2017, 4:56 am #7

Quick question: How easy is it to enclose an object with a printer? Or, perhaps more descriptively, is it possible to print around a "core", an object to be embedded permanently into the printed object?

The idea here is that one could print an all-new paintball gun body- a functional body- if you could first produce an aluminum 'core' that would hold the pressure. On something like a 'Cocker, you'd just need to develop some sort of valve chamber. On a spoolvalve gun, like a Shocker, you'd need a sleeve, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what if one printed the first third of the body, set the aluminum core in place (perhaps suitably roughed so the plastic adheres well, and possibly even heated slightly so it embeds solidly in the first half) and then proceed to print the rest of the body over and around it, sealing it in.

First and foremost, I can see clearances would certainly be an issue- the print head would have to be programmed to "clear" the additional body volume as it prints, and the core would have to be fairly precisely placed so the print head didn't "crash" against it as it extrudes.

But what I don't know is how well the plastic would adhere to the core piece, whether or not roughing the surface matters (IE, sandblasting) or of the core would produce "cold shuts" where the filament cools to quickly to properly adhere to the previous layer.

This is, at the moment, strictly a thought experiment. I have no project in mind, though I have been toying with the idea of picking up a decent off-the-shelf printer, partly for the general CNC/CAD-modelling practice, and partly for the potential of prototyping parts for things like the forthcoming 'Duke' lever-action.

Buddy of mine has a new Prusa, and I see the 3rd gen of that model is about to be released. if the street price of the new one isn't much more than the old one, I was thinking of getting one. Yeah, there's cheaper ones on the market, but I'm told the Prusa has some handy user-friendly aspects, like self-levelling and a fairly simple interface.

Any opinions on that one?

Doc.
I have 2 cheap 3d printers, you can get a functional printer for under $200, but you also are buying a new hobby at that price. If you have a little more money than time, the Prusa printers look like a great deal. Having worked with 3d printing for a while some of the new features on the i3 mk3 would be very nice, the coated steel bed so you don't have to mess with tape or glue to get the plastic to stick is a big improvement. the sensors for recovery on power failure or filament issues is also huge.

As for embedding metal parts in the plastic I'm planning on trying that this week, so this is still theory for me. The inserted part needs to be no higher than the layer just printed, there can be some gaps or holes, the filament will bridge over small open spaces. The plastic can only bond to the top of the insert, it's already cooled off everywhere else it touches it, it might be possible to glue the insert in though.
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Joined: August 16th, 2016, 11:47 am

October 5th, 2017, 4:01 pm #8

Quick question: How easy is it to enclose an object with a printer? Or, perhaps more descriptively, is it possible to print around a "core", an object to be embedded permanently into the printed object?

The idea here is that one could print an all-new paintball gun body- a functional body- if you could first produce an aluminum 'core' that would hold the pressure. On something like a 'Cocker, you'd just need to develop some sort of valve chamber. On a spoolvalve gun, like a Shocker, you'd need a sleeve, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what if one printed the first third of the body, set the aluminum core in place (perhaps suitably roughed so the plastic adheres well, and possibly even heated slightly so it embeds solidly in the first half) and then proceed to print the rest of the body over and around it, sealing it in.

First and foremost, I can see clearances would certainly be an issue- the print head would have to be programmed to "clear" the additional body volume as it prints, and the core would have to be fairly precisely placed so the print head didn't "crash" against it as it extrudes.

But what I don't know is how well the plastic would adhere to the core piece, whether or not roughing the surface matters (IE, sandblasting) or of the core would produce "cold shuts" where the filament cools to quickly to properly adhere to the previous layer.

This is, at the moment, strictly a thought experiment. I have no project in mind, though I have been toying with the idea of picking up a decent off-the-shelf printer, partly for the general CNC/CAD-modelling practice, and partly for the potential of prototyping parts for things like the forthcoming 'Duke' lever-action.

Buddy of mine has a new Prusa, and I see the 3rd gen of that model is about to be released. if the street price of the new one isn't much more than the old one, I was thinking of getting one. Yeah, there's cheaper ones on the market, but I'm told the Prusa has some handy user-friendly aspects, like self-levelling and a fairly simple interface.

Any opinions on that one?

Doc.
I'm not a 3D print guru nor a paint baller.

I understand the desire to totally encapsulate the working parts, but, I wonder why not print two halves and glue, screw, or sonic weld them together.

Seems like a faster way to swap bodies.
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Joined: October 1st, 2014, 8:46 pm

October 8th, 2017, 11:31 pm #9

We have a Ultimaker 2+ Extended that we use to prototype alum extrusion shapes constantly. Here are the things I'm not sure how you would get around.

1) Printer head collisions with the aluminum part. While I'm sure there is some way to get around this if you write your own gcode to control the printer, normal slicer applications don't have any (that i know of) provisions for avoiding hitting stuff that it didn't print. I would suggest finding ways to design the part so the aluminum sleeve can slide into the body post printing.

2) Adhesion is going to vary by the material your printing with. ABS is probably ideal in terms of strength, PSI rating etc. Its also a pain in the ass to print. Roughing up materials might help. Once you get into exotic materials such as printable carbon fiber stuff I have no idea.

Past these two things, its super useful. I have printed up eye covers for guns, triggers etc for paintball stuff. Work great, super light weight. If you have more questions or want to run a design past us to see if we see anything wrong with it feel free to email me.
Another thing to consider is how much heat the parts being encased would absorb. It could keep the print head too cool, then possibly store the heat where the filament would normally be trying to cool.

A thing I've seen is people will print a shell, jog the machine over, then slide their parts into the print, then finish the print to seal the top.

I think it could work on small things, but just like a mill, you'd have to worry about the head colliding with things.

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