Jack Campin
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Joined: October 4th, 2010, 2:48 pm

October 4th, 2011, 10:07 pm #21

Yes, you've got that right.

The fingerings of a G ocarina are quite similar to those of a Highland pipe. Disregarding the left little finger and right thumb, which are down all the time, you play the scale in more or less the same way (a pipe uses the C sharp rather than natural). D is all right hand fingers down, low A adds three right hand fingers down.

Recorder players get used to having the same fingerings produce a different pitch depending on what instrument you have. It's not as hard to learn as it seems.

The point is that I never play "ocarina music", as Kresimir does. I play music for other specific instruments, like the pipes, or for any instrument that can cover the required range of the tune. I have between 100,000 and a million pages of it in this room. Trying to find transposed versions of it, or transposing it myself before I play any of it, would be nuts.
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The Rosskonian
Double Ocarinist x 4
Double Ocarinist x 4
Joined: July 23rd, 2011, 6:38 pm

November 11th, 2011, 6:29 pm #22

Ok, after re-reading this thread and trying to review things I believed I had the concept for, I still think I am missing something. I understand what Jack is saying about never playing "ocarina music" and thus, uses a G ocarina as a G ocarina, as in, when he sees G, he plays G on the ocarina with the proper fingerings for G, in the case of a ten hole, all the holes covered(and so on for the rest of the notes). In a lot of sense, this is what I could see the practical application of getting an ocarina in G for: for the different range. What I think I am missing out is what Kres' recommendation is. So what does he recommend using an ocarina in G for if not for the extended range on a piece that is outside the range of a C ocarina? Just for a different sound? As in, playing a piece with an ocarina in G using the fingerings for an ocarina in C and hearing how it sounds? Is that all? Maybe the main part I am missing is the "transposing in your head" part. What does that mean? That sounds exactly the same as the example above by playing G on your G ocarina as you would play C on your C ocarina.
[+] Ocarinas I own
Hamlett Alto in C
Focalink plastic Soprano in C
Bon Soloist plastic Soprano in C
Noble plastic Alto in C (new model, not the Night one)
2 Night by Noble plastic Alto in C (one black, one white, thinking about trading one once I decide which color I like more)
STL/TNG Purple Clay Soprano in C
Mountain Ocarina in G, Aluminium
Hamlett Alto in G
Focalink Seedpod Bass in C (six hole)
Focalink TaiChi Pendant in Soprano G (for trade)

Last updated on 13/3/2013
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Jack Campin
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Joined: October 4th, 2010, 2:48 pm

November 11th, 2011, 6:57 pm #23

The main reason for doing it Kres's way is to play the multi-part music written for ocarina groups in the Italian tradition. Each part is written with all-fingers-down-makes-a-C fingerings, though the group contains both C and G ocarinas. The idea came from 19th century wind music for brass and saxophones, though it was first invented in the 18th century for clarinets and brass (brass instruments like the horn can change their basic key by swapping a length of tubing). It seems to have started out because brass instruments were made in "flat" keys before they were brought into the standard orchestra - when they were used on their own in groups like the old "town waits" of Britain or the "harmonie" of central Europe, they could just pretend they were playing in a different pitch standard. When they found themselves in the same band as violinists who said "hey! that's not a C! it's a B flat!" they made the discrepancy systematic.

The ocarina quartet music written for the US military around WW2 works the same way. Most ocarina makers of the last generation have adopted the idea, though with much less reason since hardly anybody plays that sort of consort music any more.

The idea was never applied to stringed instruments of the violin family, or to the recorder.

Mountain Ocarinas sensibly says you can use either approach as appropriate, which makes sense since they promote their ocarinas as folk instruments.
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The Rosskonian
Double Ocarinist x 4
Double Ocarinist x 4
Joined: July 23rd, 2011, 6:38 pm

November 12th, 2011, 5:28 pm #24

Very interesting on the history of it.

But I am still confused: So if each part of music for the ocarina group is written with all-fingers-down-makes-a-C fingerings, then the music has been transposed to each individual ocarina, correct?

So when he says, "learn to transpose in your head", does that mean that you see G on the sheet music and you play G on your ocarina in G with all the fingers down? That sounds exactly the same as playing each ocarina with a different fingering chart. Since G on an ocarina in G would be all the fingers down just as C on an ocarina in C would be all the fingers down. This is what is really confusing me.
[+] Ocarinas I own
Hamlett Alto in C
Focalink plastic Soprano in C
Bon Soloist plastic Soprano in C
Noble plastic Alto in C (new model, not the Night one)
2 Night by Noble plastic Alto in C (one black, one white, thinking about trading one once I decide which color I like more)
STL/TNG Purple Clay Soprano in C
Mountain Ocarina in G, Aluminium
Hamlett Alto in G
Focalink Seedpod Bass in C (six hole)
Focalink TaiChi Pendant in Soprano G (for trade)

Last updated on 13/3/2013
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Jack Campin
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Joined: October 4th, 2010, 2:48 pm

November 12th, 2011, 5:48 pm #25

"Transposing in your head" is different from treating the ocarina as non-transposing. I can do it but don't often need to. Better to carry on thinking of it in your preferred way - "playing each ocarina with a different fingering chart".
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Tootieflutie
Double Ocarinist x 3
Double Ocarinist x 3
Joined: November 25th, 2011, 5:36 pm

November 27th, 2011, 4:52 pm #26

Oh my gosh! I have such a headache after reading all of this! :facepalm:

Is this saying that I can just forget about the key of my ocarina and just play the darn thing if I am playing solo? In other words, read the music pretending my oc is in C? Just use the same fingerings no matter what my oc is labeled as? Just know that C=Do, D= Re, etc and use the lowest note as Do? 8-D
Jan >^..^<

"Do not let your happiness depend on something you may lose." Augustine

[+] My Instruments
Mollenhauer Chorus Alto Recorder
Aulos keyless tenor recorder
Yamaha 312B III alto recorder
Schott alto recorder
unknown wooden soprano recorder
The Muse in C
Zin Tenor C
Lanikai Curly Koa Concert ukulele
Kala Shark ukulele
Kawai baby grand piano
Jupiter silver classical flute
a few Native American flutes
Earth Tone Anasazi
Xiao from China
tin whistles
fife
(I'm sure I'm forgetting something ...)
[+] May be Selling
The Muse in C
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melodican
Triple Ocarinist x 2
Triple Ocarinist x 2
Joined: February 7th, 2011, 10:45 pm

November 28th, 2011, 12:24 am #27

It can be kind of frustrating, to be sure, but understanding transposition is one of those tools that should be in any musician's arsenal. For tunes that I like to play, some ocarinas will sound better than others, but the important thing (since they're all chromatic) is that their transposition is accurate. This way, you get a fairly similar sound no matter which ocarina you choose.

I hope that makes sense.
Best viewed with Firefox and a healthy sense of humour.
[+] Ocarinas I own or have owned
Colombo Triple
Focalink AC and SG
Focalink Double AC (custom artwork)
Focalink Plastic AC and SC
Focalink Sopranino Pendant in F
Hamlett Alto G
Menaglio Do 1, Sol 2, Do 3, Sol 4
Mountain Polycarbonate, G & C
Pacchioni DoppiaV in C
Songbird Raku Dragon Tooth
Spencer Virtuoso DAC
STL MaxRange Double
Tenrai Extended-Range Pendant (in A)
A rather poorly tuned cicada ocarina. No idea who made it, but it was my first.

And now I've started making them as well. :)
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WindSong
Double Ocarinist x 4
Double Ocarinist x 4
Joined: June 19th, 2010, 12:45 am

November 28th, 2011, 2:28 am #28

Here's my 2 cents:
(I'll do it with 6-Hole Asian style Fingering Charts, since they are the simplest, but the same thing applies to 12-Hole Transverse ocarinas.)
[+] Using the ocarina as a transposing instrument
This is the Fingering Chart for a 'C' ocarina:



If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'C', the sound will be in 'C'

We can also use this Fingering Chart for any other ocarina:
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'F', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'F'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'D', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'D'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'G', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'G'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'A', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'A'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'Bb', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'Bb'

This allows us to play in many different keys, while having to learn only 1 Fingering Chart.
[+] Not using the ocarina as a transposing instrument
There are some pieces of music that fit better on a specific ocarina. Say for instance a 'G'.
In that case we would not use this 'C' fingering chart:



Instead we would learn the actual concert fingering of your 'G' ocarina. Like this:



Using this Fingering Chart, the notes on the sheet music and the sound coming out of the ocarina will match.

To play the concert fingerings of all our different ocarinas, we have to learn a different Fingering Chart for each ocarina.
Does that help at all?

My Goal: See Sojiro in live concert someday.
WindSong's Blog
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RawritsCassie
Inline Ocarinist x 2
Inline Ocarinist x 2
Joined: November 17th, 2011, 9:42 pm

November 28th, 2011, 2:53 am #29

That helps so much, for me at least. Pictures/diagrams make this so much more simpler.
<3
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Tootieflutie
Double Ocarinist x 3
Double Ocarinist x 3
Joined: November 25th, 2011, 5:36 pm

November 28th, 2011, 4:03 am #30

WindSong wrote:Here's my 2 cents:
(I'll do it with 6-Hole Asian style Fingering Charts, since they are the simplest, but the same thing applies to 12-Hole Transverse ocarinas.)
[+] Using the ocarina as a transposing instrument
This is the Fingering Chart for a 'C' ocarina:



If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'C', the sound will be in 'C'

We can also use this Fingering Chart for any other ocarina:
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'F', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'F'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'D', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'D'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'G', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'G'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'A', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'A'
If we read the sheet music using this Fingering Chart on a 'Bb', the tune will be the same, but the sound will be in 'Bb'

This allows us to play in many different keys, while having to learn only 1 Fingering Chart.
[+] Not using the ocarina as a transposing instrument
There are some pieces of music that fit better on a specific ocarina. Say for instance a 'G'.
In that case we would not use this 'C' fingering chart:



Instead we would learn the actual concert fingering of your 'G' ocarina. Like this:



Using this Fingering Chart, the notes on the sheet music and the sound coming out of the ocarina will match.

To play the concert fingerings of all our different ocarinas, we have to learn a different Fingering Chart for each ocarina.
Does that help at all?
Yes, that helps! Thanks! That's what I thought.

The second part is still a little confusing but I'll re-read and see if it sinks in.
Jan >^..^<

"Do not let your happiness depend on something you may lose." Augustine

[+] My Instruments
Mollenhauer Chorus Alto Recorder
Aulos keyless tenor recorder
Yamaha 312B III alto recorder
Schott alto recorder
unknown wooden soprano recorder
The Muse in C
Zin Tenor C
Lanikai Curly Koa Concert ukulele
Kala Shark ukulele
Kawai baby grand piano
Jupiter silver classical flute
a few Native American flutes
Earth Tone Anasazi
Xiao from China
tin whistles
fife
(I'm sure I'm forgetting something ...)
[+] May be Selling
The Muse in C
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