Ocarina Glossary part.1 - Ocarina Types

Panch
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Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:17 am

February 14th, 2010, 9:01 pm #1

I felt that we could arrange this into something of a chart.
[+] Spoiler
It's really quite a simple chart, and most of you should figure it out soon enough, if you haven't already by a first glance.
Most of us should agree on most points, but of course, the duplet/harmony/polyphonic catagory. We need a definitive name for this, and I'd love for people to give suggestions. We also need to call "Pendent" ocarinas something, because a lot of other types of ocarinas are made into pendents, too. I'm suggesting "English pendent", or "English" ocarina, personally.

Also, if you're wishing to suggest another catagory, please do so, however, we are not including sculptural ocarinas, on account of them being too varied in appearance to generalise with a single representing image.

Also, we are not delving into all specific kinds of certain types of ocarinas - YET. For example all transverses (10-holes, 12-holes, 9-holes) are included under the "Transverse" section. We will go into detail on all individual kinds of ocarinas later!

If any of you see an ocarina that could fill in the blanks in the chart, post a picture and I will transform it into a diagram.


Remember, this is a collaborative effort, guys! :D
Last edited by Panch on February 15th, 2010, 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Krešimir Cindrić
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February 14th, 2010, 9:34 pm #2

Great table, but I have one objection:

For a transverse "duplet" you should put something like: this.

My objection is not only subjective one (although it's well known that I love Budrian ocarinas). There are also two very objective reasons:
1. Hind's "harmony sweet potato" is much rarer form of ocarina than Budrian polyphonic ocarina. Woodsound, Pacchioni and all Budrian makers (7 generations) used this design.
2. Hind's "harmony sweet potato" uses the same fingering as a double English pendant such as those of Terry Riley (which could fit in your category of "duplet pendant", the same way as this harmony sweet potato), so they are actually pendants, not transverse. Budrian polyphonic ocarinas use linear fingering system, very similar to that of a transverse 10-hole ocarina and they use identical bodies as transverse Budrian ocarinas (made from the same mould).
Last edited by Krešimir Cindrić on February 14th, 2010, 10:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Panch
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February 14th, 2010, 9:41 pm #3

kcindric wrote:For a transverse "duplet" you should put something like this: this.

That's not only because I love Budrian ocarinas, but there are also two objective reasons for that:
1. Hind's transverse "duplet" is much rarer form of ocarina than Budrian polyphonic ocarina, which looks like
2. Hind's "duplet" uses the same fingering as a double English pendant such as those of Terry Riley, so they are actually pendants, not transverse. Budrian polyphonic ocarina uses linear fingering system, very similar to that of a transverse 10-hole ocarina.
Well, yes, I've considered that, but thought they were a little out of date, see... I mean, they're pretty much redundant now that the English system is around, no? Same amount of holes, almost twice the range? I'm conflicted, myself, but I feel that due to Hind's pattern (which isn't so rare, as I've seen it on at least two other brands) having an actual transverse shape and greater range, it should be the one to follow. Perhaps we'll have to put it to a vote later...

I figured that most duplets run off the English system... perhaps I'm wrong.

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Bateleur
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February 14th, 2010, 9:53 pm #4

There various shapes of ocarinas that use different kinds of fingerings. There are pod-like ocarinas (pendants) that use either cross-fingerings or linear fingerings, and the same is true for sweet potato ocarinas. An ocarina can be classified by both fingering style and shape, and it is my opinion that such a chart should reflect this as well.
Pandorado wrote: We should be the forum that people go to for support of all ocarinas and encouraging people to become the best players they can with whatever ocarina they have.
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Panch
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February 14th, 2010, 9:56 pm #5

Bateleur wrote:There various shapes of ocarinas that use different kinds of fingerings. There are pod-like ocarinas (pendants) that use either cross-fingerings or linear fingerings, and the same is true for sweet potato ocarinas. An ocarina can be classified by both fingering style and shape, and it is my opinion that such a chart should reflect this as well.
Yes, though it'd be a bloody complex chart if we did. I thought maybe going for the most common fingerings or the most sensible would have been best, at least for this abbreviated chart. x_x

I am leaning mainly toward looks in this chart, to be honest. Hind's LOOKS more like a transverse duplet, while Budrios is essentially an inline duplet.

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Krešimir Cindrić
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February 14th, 2010, 9:58 pm #6

I can name at least 11 makers who make or used to make in polyphonic ocarinas with linear fingering system: all Budrian makers (that's 7 if we count Mezzeti brothers as one maker), i.e. Donati, Mezzeti, Vicinelli, Chiesa, Cesari, Mignani and Menaglio. Then we have non-Budrian makers: Luigi Silvestri, Giorgio Pacchioni (who made at least 5 variations on that form), Kurt Posch, Johann Rotter.

And I wouldn't call it obsolete, just because the system is older and offers a smaller range of notes. Following that logic, you could call all ocarinas except triples obsolete, because they have a smaller range, but that would be absurd since single chambered ocarinas have their advantages. There are also reasons (besides tradition, which is also a good reason) why makers like Posch, Menaglio and Pacchioni continue to make and improve designs of such polyphonic ocarinas (and they certainly are familiar with the English system, since they also make very small ocarinas with 4 or 6 holes). So, in my opinion, this is the "true" transverse "duplet".

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Panch
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February 14th, 2010, 10:01 pm #7

kcindric wrote:There are also reasons (besides tradition, which is also a good reason) why makers like Posch, Menaglio and Pacchioni continue to make and improve designs of such polyphonic ocarinas (and they certainly are familiar with the English system, since they also make very small ocarinas with 4 or 6 holes). So, in my opinion, this is the "true" transverse "duplet".
But if you look at its shape and layout, it is an inline, not a transverse at all.
Look at the direction it faces, how your hands are positioned when you play it.
It plays in a linear pattern, yes, but it cannot be a transverse, because -everything- about it says it's an inline.

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Krešimir Cindrić
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February 14th, 2010, 10:02 pm #8

Panch wrote:I am leaning mainly toward looks in this chart, to be honest. Hind's LOOKS more like a transverse duplet, while Budrios is essentially an inline duplet.

But if you look at its shape and layout, it is an inline, not a transverse at all.
Look at the direction it faces, how your hands are positioned when you play it.
It plays in a linear pattern, yes, but it cannot be a transverse, because -everything- about it says it's an inline.
While this is true for some Budrian doubles (such as those of Arrigo Mignani and Kurt Posch), it is not true for others, like Menaglio, whose "doppia" is transverse. It's actually two ocarinas, Do 3 and Sol 4 (alto C and alto G) stuck together. The windway has the shape of a letter T, i.e. it splits into two transverse windways which enter the two chambers at almost 90° angle. Following that logic, you can also call a Focalink double ocarina an inline, since it's windway is at a very acute angle to the body of the ocarina.


However, if you really, really want to keep Hind's "harmony sweet potato" as a representative of a transverse "duplet", that's fine with me and I think that's a great chart even as such :) It's really not such a big deal - I just wanted to point out at some arguments which I believe are valid.
Last edited by Krešimir Cindrić on February 14th, 2010, 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Panch
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February 14th, 2010, 10:07 pm #9

You know what!? Screw it all! XD

We have TWO different dublet types! Linear and English! There! We're both happy! Okay!? XDD
One system is just too efficient and practical to give up, while one is traditional, so it stays... therefore we keep BOTH! :V
Even so! Is "duplet" what we really want to call these? I'm just using it as a placeholder name until people overthrow the decision and want something else. I'm hoping for polyphonic, myself.
Last edited by Panch on February 14th, 2010, 10:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Bateleur
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February 14th, 2010, 10:17 pm #10

I like polyphonic more than duplet as well. But can we not just differentiate between extended range and harmony simply by calling them extended range doubles and harmony doubles? =P
Pandorado wrote: We should be the forum that people go to for support of all ocarinas and encouraging people to become the best players they can with whatever ocarina they have.
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