crumpy
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 9:08 pm

May 15th, 2011, 6:01 am #11

Cool, thanks for the feedback guys i'll make changes soon.

I want to say again, that this isn't based on my opinions but on the most commonly expressed views on the board. I've spent upwards of 2-3 hours a day on this board reading new and old posts and this is based on what I have observed. The only part I decided to overwrite common opinion was the tab vs music part simply because the most common opinion/view is pretty mis-informed on that subject.

As for the makers list, there are endless streams of makers out there and I'm not making a list of them all. the line needs to be drawn somewhere, I'm simply not going to include obscure/little known about makers.

Are there any note worthy brands/shops that you think this has neglected? or represented unfairly? let me know so I can update it.

@suba, sure thing. I'll just wait till it's a little ironed out first though.

EDIT:
I might hold a few polls and replace some of the content in this thread with the results.
Last edited by crumpy on May 15th, 2011, 7:59 am, edited 6 times in total.
[+] Ocarina Wish List
Giorgio Pacchioni C1
Giorgio Pacchioni G4
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV G2
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaS Bb3
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV F4
Focalink TAC Forte
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaV C5
Noble Contrabass
Plaschk (hmm, not sure what tuning?)
Teacarina set
Hind "Sweet Potato"
Baritone Bamboo Sax
Fujara
Beginners Introduction to the World of Transverse ocarinas

My YouTube Channel No performances yet
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Ocarinadiva
Premium Poster
Premium Poster
Joined: January 17th, 2009, 11:43 pm

May 15th, 2011, 6:37 am #12

Commonly expressed views do not necessarily make them accurate. Many people have chosen, like you, to simply regurgitate 2nd hand information rather than stick their own firsthand experiences.

If this "guide" is based upon the supposed opinions of the community, then you should represent all of the opinions of the community. If you will not or cannot do this, then you should not represent your guide as anything but your own opinion. TON is a diverse place and if you want your guide to represent TON, then it should demonstrate our diversity. In its current form, I do not think it does this adequately.


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STL Contractor: I make ocarina product overviews and design ocarinas.

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reikokuna
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: July 1st, 2010, 2:33 am

May 15th, 2011, 7:31 am #13

Ocarinadiva wrote:Commonly expressed views do not necessarily make them accurate. Many people have chosen, like you, to simply regurgitate 2nd hand information rather than stick their own firsthand experiences.
I agree.

Though the intention behind the creation of this guide, is good, I think it may be somewhat destructive to only present certain ideas and brands. I think "guides", especially ones that are supposed to be the informative kind, should present most (if not, all that is possible) available information at hand...and allow the reader the independence and freedom of deriving own opinions and decisions from unbiased factual information.

The author of the text could insert their own opinion, or express what has been found to be the most "common" views...but this needs to be clearly stated.

I don't like the idea of hand picked views, being presented as if they are absolutes.

As it is now, it feels limiting.

Beginners mostly can't help wanting/needing a convenient guide...but depending on where they look, information absorbed from just one guide, might be thought of as a magical all-in-one cure all for lack of knowledge.

---
Since you've been spending so much time reading through information derived from/presented within discussions in the past, it would be nice if you would link to the particular sections from where you gathered particular information you present, especially if this is leaning more towards just one side.

That way, even if you present things from what you gathered through views that you've read, the third party reading your guide can go directly to the source from which you have summarized your information. Not as limiting if done in this way.

---
I personally do appreciate your efforts, but I think, when giving introductions, especially to beginners...one should be extra mindful.

EDIT: Changed one adjective. =3=
Last edited by reikokuna on May 15th, 2011, 7:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ocarinas I own:
[+] Spoiler
:pendant: WangYue AC :pendant: Teardrop SG :ocarina: Focalink 12 hole SC-P :double: Focalink DAC
Ocarina wishlist:
[+] Spoiler
:pendant: Langley Double :inline: Hind Harmony Inline :double: WPN Compact Double :ocarina: Focalink sweetpotato AC&SG
:ocarina: TNG/STL 12 hole "Tenor" Enigma :oldoc: Gretsch ocarinas :oldoc: Old Glory ocarinas Songbird Muse
The above lists are highly outdated...especially the "Ocarinas I own" part :P (July 30, 2012)

--
My first and (at the moment) only YouTube ocarina video from 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qINmzHCa3Ls
(Featuring the Rotter/Ocarinamusic G2 Soprano Lang :) )
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crumpy
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 9:08 pm

May 15th, 2011, 7:36 am #14

Well, I said I will make changes. I'm not disagreeing with the things that have been said, it definately needs work.

The first line of my post reads "Cool, thanks for the feedback guys i'll make changes soon."

All I said in my last post is that I'll make changes soon, that I'm not going to include every maker in the list of popular brands, and also point out that most of it isn't based on my opinion. The only reason I made that last point is because it had been suggested otherwise.

I agree the beginner purchases part needs to be re-worked heavily. I don't agree with every point you raised to illustrate this Chris but as a whole you are right. If it's going to suggest certain brands it needs to be a lot more thorough and comprehensive on the subject, making sure to take into consideration many brands.

reikokuna wrote:Since you've been spending so much time reading through information derived from/presented within discussions in the past, it would be nice if you would link to the particular sections from where you gathered particular information you present, especially if this is leaning more towards just one side.
I think as much as this would help for the sole purpose of validating the things I type it would be massively impractical and a scary amount of work for me. There isn't just one or two discussions that would need to be referenced, I'd practically have to reference the whole history of TON. Your post is helpful though, thanks for your feedback
CosmicWaves wrote:Sweet guide man! I don't know where you got the fingering chart, but that's the most intuitive chart I've seen thus far. good work.
Did you mean the 12 hole one? I made that for myself a little while back, glad you like it.

The Italian one was made by Kresimir I believe, It's also very good. Very thorough, it has loads of useful info in it considering it's just a fingering chart lol
Last edited by crumpy on May 15th, 2011, 8:38 am, edited 17 times in total.
[+] Ocarina Wish List
Giorgio Pacchioni C1
Giorgio Pacchioni G4
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV G2
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaS Bb3
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV F4
Focalink TAC Forte
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaV C5
Noble Contrabass
Plaschk (hmm, not sure what tuning?)
Teacarina set
Hind "Sweet Potato"
Baritone Bamboo Sax
Fujara
Beginners Introduction to the World of Transverse ocarinas

My YouTube Channel No performances yet
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reikokuna
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: July 1st, 2010, 2:33 am

May 15th, 2011, 8:46 am #15

crumpy wrote:
reikokuna wrote:Since you've been spending so much time reading through information derived from/presented within discussions in the past, it would be nice if you would link to the particular sections from where you gathered particular information you present, especially if this is leaning more towards just one side.
I think as much as this would help for the sole purpose of validating the things I type it would be massively impractical and a scary amount of work for me. There isn't just one or two discussions that would need to be referenced, I'd practically have to reference the whole history of TON lol
You did imply that most of the information from your guide are general views that have been repeated over and over again. Making reference of at least one or two that elaborates or speaks more than the summarized version is more than enough to encourage further reading. There is no need to feel like you need to reference every single repetition of an idea. Just that if what is being said reflects a strong opinion (*or one that presents something as a fact*), that the writer disowns and labels to have been gathered from somewhere...it would be nice if we can find out where that somewhere is?

Ex. The part where you said Noble ocarinas are designed to be played in Ensembles...where did you get that information? I surely would like to know, because I had not previously had that knowledge...and so I want to know if that has a sound basis, or if that is an assumption. Seems to me, ocarinas in general were encouraged to be played in ensembles, especially in the Italian tradition...so I don't know if you have a specific entry somewhere, where that is mentioned...that you felt the need that it was vital to state. o__O

EDIT: added statement enclosed in * *
Last edited by reikokuna on May 15th, 2011, 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ocarinas I own:
[+] Spoiler
:pendant: WangYue AC :pendant: Teardrop SG :ocarina: Focalink 12 hole SC-P :double: Focalink DAC
Ocarina wishlist:
[+] Spoiler
:pendant: Langley Double :inline: Hind Harmony Inline :double: WPN Compact Double :ocarina: Focalink sweetpotato AC&SG
:ocarina: TNG/STL 12 hole "Tenor" Enigma :oldoc: Gretsch ocarinas :oldoc: Old Glory ocarinas Songbird Muse
The above lists are highly outdated...especially the "Ocarinas I own" part :P (July 30, 2012)

--
My first and (at the moment) only YouTube ocarina video from 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qINmzHCa3Ls
(Featuring the Rotter/Ocarinamusic G2 Soprano Lang :) )
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crumpy
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 9:08 pm

May 15th, 2011, 9:27 am #16

The thing is if i have to find a quote for every single point made in the post then it wouldn't be one or two. And even if I do use one or two quotes im not sure that showing one example where a person has said something would really be any validation that it is a popular view.

I'm not going to back up every point I make in the post with a quote but if there are any you want me to clear up I'll make an effort too.

As for the one you just brought up about Noble ocarinas, I said "Designed as with performance and ensembles in mind" to be exact. Thanks for spotting that. That is an assumption I've made based on the fact that pretty much every time I have seen anything to do with noble ocarinas it is performance or ensemble related, they have an official noble ensemble band that represents them etc. But it is an assumption that shouldn't have slipped in there so I will remove it.

EDIT: anyway, I'm editing it so give me a chance to do that, unless you spot something new.
Last edited by crumpy on May 15th, 2011, 9:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
[+] Ocarina Wish List
Giorgio Pacchioni C1
Giorgio Pacchioni G4
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV G2
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaS Bb3
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV F4
Focalink TAC Forte
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaV C5
Noble Contrabass
Plaschk (hmm, not sure what tuning?)
Teacarina set
Hind "Sweet Potato"
Baritone Bamboo Sax
Fujara
Beginners Introduction to the World of Transverse ocarinas

My YouTube Channel No performances yet
Quote
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Krešimir Cindrić
Quadruple Ocarinist x 5
Quadruple Ocarinist x 5
Joined: May 14th, 2009, 1:31 pm

May 15th, 2011, 11:08 am #17

I don't see a problem with those things. Everything is linked to other topics of TON and readers are encouraged to do some research on their own before making a purchase. These are not Crumpy's preferences, everything has a reference to the appropriate thread on TON. Following that logic, you could say Wikipedia is biased and unfair.

I think it is important to add a link to OFFICIAL Reviews database, which is missing at the moment. And I would add a link to Regional Focus section to include less known, smaller makers.

Also, ocarina history part is painfully short and more or less useless. I think it is better to add links to Ocarina History section.

Also, the most important link of all times is missing \(°o°)/
http://theocarinanetwork.com/topic/6821972
(a bit of shameless self-plugging here

Code: Select all

;)
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Last edited by Krešimir Cindrić on May 15th, 2011, 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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crumpy
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 9:08 pm

May 15th, 2011, 11:59 am #18

Cheers Kresimir

I'm trying to be us fair as I possibly can but its hard. For example, I don't want to recommend something that has a shady reputation or that people have suggested is poor, but if I don't it seems to anger some because I'm 'discriminating' against it. And I can't just say it's my opinion and I am allowed to share it, because my opinion is second hand and lacks credibility whether it is right or not.

So I have come to what I think is the best possible solution. I will not make any specific recommendations. Instead, I will hold a very thorough poll for the members to share their opinions on the matter. I will link it to the guide and post a print screen of the results once it has got quite a few votes.

I'll clearly state that the results are nothing more than the combination of peoples opinion from this board which could be influenced by many things including how common an ocarina is or how easy it is to buy. I will make it clear that this is not a definitive be all and end all answer, but a safe indication of what is the majority opinion. Something that can give them an indication of where to start looking.
-----

@ Kres, The practicing list guide you made (which is awesome) was actually on my list of things to add and I edited the post to link the Review section earlier, but I didn't link the database because I wasn't sure if it was still being kept up to date? (I found some deadlinks in it a while back) Maybe I'll link it anyway.

Regional focus section is a good shout too, I'll include that. I was planning to have a look around for any other guides and stuff too.

Keep the recommendations and criticisms coming peeps
CLICK BELOW TO VOTE

What would you consider to be a good beginners ocarina for a complete noob?

What about a double ocarina?

--------

EDIT:
I'm still editing the post. It's a bit messy. But mostly it's how it is going to stay now.

I'm going to tidy it up. Link some other things in and make a short part about plastic ocarinas.

If anybody has any extra suggestions for the shop section post them here.

thanks

Last edited by crumpy on May 15th, 2011, 1:24 pm, edited 10 times in total.
[+] Ocarina Wish List
Giorgio Pacchioni C1
Giorgio Pacchioni G4
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV G2
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaS Bb3
Giorgio Pacchioni DoppiaV F4
Focalink TAC Forte
Giorgio Pacchioni TriplaV C5
Noble Contrabass
Plaschk (hmm, not sure what tuning?)
Teacarina set
Hind "Sweet Potato"
Baritone Bamboo Sax
Fujara
Beginners Introduction to the World of Transverse ocarinas

My YouTube Channel No performances yet
Quote
Like
Share

Ocarinadiva
Premium Poster
Premium Poster
Joined: January 17th, 2009, 11:43 pm

May 15th, 2011, 4:02 pm #19

I like the changes you've made so far :thumbsup:

I'm interested to see how the community recommendations section turns out. :)


Shop ? Newsletter ? Youtube ? Facebook ? Twitter



STL Contractor: I make ocarina product overviews and design ocarinas.

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reikokuna
Triple Ocarinist
Triple Ocarinist
Joined: July 1st, 2010, 2:33 am

May 15th, 2011, 6:22 pm #20

Krešimir Cindrić wrote:I don't see a problem with those things. Everything is linked to other topics of TON and readers are encouraged to do some research on their own before making a purchase. These are not Crumpy's preferences, everything has a reference to the appropriate thread on TON. Following that logic, you could say Wikipedia is biased and unfair.

[...]
Somewhat off topic post: Wikipedia entries are encouraged to include at least one or two (or a few) references :) If a part of a Wiki article appears to be presenting facts, but holds no (sound) reference, you are forewarned about the credibility of the particular statement/article.

My problem was mostly about Crumpy's preferences. Yes, they are his preference, to an extent. He chose what he believed to be the majority opinion, and what should and should not be included. That in itself, (sifting through and presenting what is believed to be majority opinion, for the good intention of serving others) isn't the whole issue (personally). It is an issue when his own personal assumptions become mixed in with the presented majority opinion, without making note of that.

---
Again, Crumpy, I am not saying you HAVE to, on every single post. That's your call if you feel like you have to go through that. I'm just saying, that for certain opinions, it would be nice if references are made to support that.

---
I am glad the part about Noble "Designed as with performance and ensembles in mind" has been corrected. I wanted to know if that were really so, because I was curious.

..and that if that were indeed so, it would have been an interesting tidbit...but then it turns out it isn't.
Ocarinas I own:
[+] Spoiler
:pendant: WangYue AC :pendant: Teardrop SG :ocarina: Focalink 12 hole SC-P :double: Focalink DAC
Ocarina wishlist:
[+] Spoiler
:pendant: Langley Double :inline: Hind Harmony Inline :double: WPN Compact Double :ocarina: Focalink sweetpotato AC&SG
:ocarina: TNG/STL 12 hole "Tenor" Enigma :oldoc: Gretsch ocarinas :oldoc: Old Glory ocarinas Songbird Muse
The above lists are highly outdated...especially the "Ocarinas I own" part :P (July 30, 2012)

--
My first and (at the moment) only YouTube ocarina video from 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qINmzHCa3Ls
(Featuring the Rotter/Ocarinamusic G2 Soprano Lang :) )
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