tedwentz
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Joined: 3:13 PM - Jan 08, 2017

8:43 AM - Feb 04, 2018 #11

One other reason to make unpowered cars. Even with the excellent ESU decoders it is difficult to speed match all the Rapido RDCs. There is a lot of variation due to production tolerances. The BEMF settings can cause little jerks between the cars which cannot be good for the presumably fragile driveline components. A consist of 4 powered Washboards all tugging randomly at each other isn't a terrific idea. Better to have one powered car and 3 dummies. Especially since you wouldn't need the sounds of diesel prime movers as with the RDCs. Postwar electric MUs are pretty quiet in their operation. One car with sound would suffice IMHO.
Ted
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rsullivan
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Joined: 3:36 PM - Dec 14, 2016

2:38 PM - Feb 04, 2018 #12

tedwentz wrote: One other reason to make unpowered cars. Even with the excellent ESU decoders it is difficult to speed match all the Rapido RDCs. There is a lot of variation due to production tolerances. The BEMF settings can cause little jerks between the cars which cannot be good for the presumably fragile driveline components. A consist of 4 powered Washboards all tugging randomly at each other isn't a terrific idea. Better to have one powered car and 3 dummies. Especially since you wouldn't need the sounds of diesel prime movers as with the RDCs. Postwar electric MUs are pretty quiet in their operation. One car with sound would suffice IMHO.
Ted
Mr. Ted. Thanks for that info on the speed matching problem. I haven't been able to run my current three Rapido RDCs, and I'm awaiting six more from my local hobby shop. Since I haven't got my layout operational yet, I have decided to go with the new ESU DCC control system with wireless remotes. Possibly the ESU decoders will respond better with the ESU DCC system over another DCC system. I do agree that silent 4400 Washboards would be approporiate and be justification for the non-powered Washboards, and I will (if Rapido decides to make the Washboards) use my Island Model Works' Washboards in the consists. However, based on what Mr. Jason said during the video announcement of the EP-5s, I would not count on them.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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Statkowski
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Joined: 4:39 AM - Mar 05, 2003

3:55 PM - Feb 04, 2018 #13

Take a powered unit and unpower it.  Problem solved.
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John Sheridan
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Joined: 3:07 PM - Feb 23, 2009

8:14 AM - Feb 05, 2018 #14

tedwentz wrote: One other reason to make unpowered cars. Even with the excellent ESU decoders it is difficult to speed match all the Rapido RDCs. There is a lot of variation due to production tolerances. The BEMF settings can cause little jerks between the cars which cannot be good for the presumably fragile driveline components. A consist of 4 powered Washboards all tugging randomly at each other isn't a terrific idea. Better to have one powered car and 3 dummies. Especially since you wouldn't need the sounds of diesel prime movers as with the RDCs. Postwar electric MUs are pretty quiet in their operation. One car with sound would suffice IMHO.
Ted
Unless you are fronting this project with your own money, You will never see an unpowered unit. The cost of adding the motor is insignificant to the cost of the model. Also, Unpowered units have a nasty habit of sitting on the shelf as the vast majority of modelers want powered units. 
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tedwentz
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Joined: 3:13 PM - Jan 08, 2017

8:53 AM - Feb 05, 2018 #15

You make an excellent point John, but my point is that I believe there is a very good business case for unpowered cars. For example a Rapido F9B had an MSRP of $299.95 with DCC and $129.95 for an unpowered version. That's a difference of $170 at full retail. Jason should sell a lot more cars at $130 than at $325. I know I would buy at least 3 to add to a powered car for a 4 car consist. I doubt if that would make me unique.
As for Jason's comment about only 10 bucks for a motor, assuming it is true, the decoder is probably going to cost another 30 bucks at least. So at a cost of $40 keystoned to a sell of $80 and it becomes a significant savings to a consumer wanting to buy a rake of cars.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Jason Shron. He is fearless when it comes to tooling for different versions of locomtives, and he has done more to elevate theindustry than anyone since William K. Walthers. He is a treasure and we are so very lucky to have him and his talented band of enthusiasts!
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DBrion
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Joined: 1:52 AM - Jun 21, 2006

10:03 AM - Feb 05, 2018 #16

Where is the link to the 4400 Washboard survey .. or is this thread it?

TIA
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rapidotrains
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Joined: 2:41 PM - Mar 22, 2010

10:36 AM - Feb 05, 2018 #17

My concern is how we do all the lighting features on the unpowered version. The pantographs would have to be manual anyway as the mechanism to raise and lower them using DCC would be visible inside the car. So that isn't an issue. But lighting is. Also sounds - they would only be coming from the powered one instead of from every car. 

The only thing I think would work to allow for unpowered units is a four-car set in a box, with the two end cars powered with decoders and speakers (or DC silent) and the two middle cars unpowered. The only lights on the unpowered cars would be the interior lights. If there were track lights (which I can't tell from grainy videos) we could include them also on the unpowered cars. That way we can ammortize the cost of the unpowered cars over the whole set. But then do we include the baggage section on one of the powered cars? That would cause an issue if you want to run a two-car or a three-car set...

We are certainly open to the idea of doing them, but it is the sort of project that we would have to do in partnership with NHRHTA. 

While the EP-5 is an iconic locomotive of interest to many collectors, the washboards would be of interest to diehard New Haven modelers. I don't think it's as large a market.

-Jason
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rsullivan
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Joined: 3:36 PM - Dec 14, 2016

11:00 AM - Feb 05, 2018 #18

     Mr. Jason(rapidotrains). Thank you for taking the time to add your 300-dollar(CDN) worth of knowledge to this thread. Here is my two-cents(US) worth of opinion. I would buy four-car box sets in the configuration that you mention. I'm going to upgrade my ten Island Model Works (IMW) 4400 Washboard coaches following the excellent steps used by Mr. Joe Smith on his Signal Station 199 website. Since my commuter trains are five cars long, I would definately buy five(5) four-car box sets in the coach only configuration to place one IMW 4400 Washboard coach in each Rapido 4400 Washboard consist. That would leave one complete IMW commuter train. However, if we are talking three or four years out I would probably commit for ten(10) four-car box sets and make all ten of my IMW 4400 Washboard coaches unpowered but with a lit up interior. Especially if the NHRHTA partners with Rapido as was done for the 8600 Coaches and the Parlor/Parlor-Lounge stainless steel streamline passenger cars.
     Again, thanks for taking the time to comment on this thread.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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tedwentz
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2:26 PM - Feb 05, 2018 #19

rapidotrains wrote: My concern is how we do all the lighting features on the unpowered version. The pantographs would have to be manual anyway as the mechanism to raise and lower them using DCC would be visible inside the car. So that isn't an issue. But lighting is. Also sounds - they would only be coming from the powered one instead of from every car. 

The only thing I think would work to allow for unpowered units is a four-car set in a box, with the two end cars powered with decoders and speakers (or DC silent) and the two middle cars unpowered. The only lights on the unpowered cars would be the interior lights. If there were track lights (which I can't tell from grainy videos) we could include them also on the unpowered cars. That way we can ammortize the cost of the unpowered cars over the whole set. But then do we include the baggage section on one of the powered cars? That would cause an issue if you want to run a two-car or a three-car set...

We are certainly open to the idea of doing them, but it is the sort of project that we would have to do in partnership with NHRHTA. 

While the EP-5 is an iconic locomotive of interest to many collectors, the washboards would be of interest to diehard New Haven modelers. I don't think it's as large a market.

-Jason
Jason, thank you for chiming in on this!
Here's an idea - Rapido could produce just 2 versions of the Washboard Coach. Version One is powered with full DCC sound and lighting functions. Version Two is unpowered with simple track-powered interior lighting a'la the 8600 coaches. We could then build any length rake we want with powered cars at the ends and unpowered cars in the middle. No need for directional headlights or markers or sounds on the unpowered cars as that would be taken care of by the powered cars at the ends of the rake.

As for the business case regarding demand. Surely the demand for these cars is as great as the demand for 8600 or even "American Flyer" coaches and parlor cars. Evidently ConCor had little trouble selling Pennsy MP54 commuter cars and the prototype cars operated in a similar sized commercial market to the New Haven cars. The ConCors were nicely engineered with powered and unpowered versions. The powered ones even had traction tire bands and could pull quite a long consist. Atlas appears to be doing quite well with their NJT double deckers, so I have to believe the current market likes commuter cars.
Your models are the best in the business, I have quite a few, and I look forward to you deciding to green light a Washboard project. Put me down for two powered and 2 unpowered in the delivery scheme.
Heck, I would even sell my NJCB brass 3 car set! 
Ted
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nhhe52
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Joined: 12:19 AM - Mar 26, 2004

2:52 PM - Feb 05, 2018 #20

If Rapido produces the Washboards I'd certainly be in the market for them in both as-delivered and McGinnis schemes.  I currently have the two NJCB as-delivered (incorrect green) sets, one set of 3 coaches (one powered), and the set with the coach, combine (powered) and club car that I'll have to sell, if they'll be worth anything after Rapido makes them.  I've thought of upgrading them with new motors, interiors, lights and glazing but wouldn't be worth the time and money if Rapido produces them.

If Rapido makes them there is also the PC paint scheme they could market.  Do they also make the NH as-delivered scheme with and without the yellowing of the letter board, car number and herald side plaques?  :)

And don't forget the DCC Function 29 third rail shoes up/down.  :)

Ed
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