New Haven 1920's Sleeper Cars

Joined: 11:36 AM - Nov 08, 2017

11:41 AM - Nov 08, 2017 #1

I'm modeling the New Haven in the 1920's - 1930's. I'm looking for a list and pictures of the sleeper cars that were used by the New Haven. Both New Haven owned and Pullman owned. Most interested in whether or not the New Haven ran any 8-1-2 Sleeper. I have a list of the Pullman owned cars, but nothing for the New Haven owned. The 8-1-2 sleepers are not listed.  Any help or input would be appreciated.  Thank you.  Jim
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rsullivan
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Joined: 3:36 PM - Dec 14, 2016

3:30 PM - Nov 08, 2017 #2

Mr. Jim. Going through the NHRTI and NHRHTA Standing Data Sheets 5.105 through 5.148, I didn't find any 8-1-2 sleepers. There were three (3) 8 sections-1 DR- 3DB Rms Pullman sleepers built 1925 -1926 New Haven numbers 730 Bok Tower (built - 1925, Pullman Plan 4090, Lot 4836, Ex - Point Arguello, condemned 7/1962), 731 Breslin Tower (built - 1925, Pullman Plan 4090, Lot 4846, Ex - Point Bank, condemned 7/62), and 732 Victoria Tower (built - 1926, Pullman Plan 4090, Lot 4961, Ex - Point Willoughby, condemned 7/62). The problem is with the 1920-1930 time frame. At that time the cars were 10-2 and 10-1 sleepers, converted to 8-1-3 configuration in 1939. Original paint scheme was Pullman's standard with Pullman Green and Pullman centered on the letterboard, changing when New Haven took ownership. Bok Tower had a repaint on September 28, 1949, so the green used should be Hunter Green with probably Imitation Aluminum lettering (unresolved question according to Dr. Horvath), repainted March 1, 1954, in Pullman Green with White lettering, and again in August 15, 1957, in two-tone Gray with White lettering. Breslin Tower was the original Pullman Green and Pullman centered on the letterboard, the name changing to New Haven, repainted January 1, 1954, in Pullman Green with White lettering, and repainted  in August 14, 1957, in two-tone Gray with White lettering. Victoria Tower was in the original Pullman scheme in PRR red with gold lettering Pullman centered on the letterboard, repainted in PRR red with New Haven in Gold lettering on April 22, 1949 and February 5, 1953, and repainted in March 14, 1956, in two-tone Gray with White lettering. (Paint information from Dr. Horvath) Models of these cars are available with decals in HO scale from Bethleham Car Works. They have specially made car sides, and interiors you have to build to the plans.
Between 1871 and 1911, the New Haven had 73 sleepers from Bradley, Barney & Smith, Harlan & Hollingsworth, Wagner, and Pullman. Forty-three of these made in revenue service past 1920, with the last one (Barney & Smith 10 compartments, Pullman Plan 3208, New Haven No. 2049, Waturus) being destroyed August 1937. The New Haven had 24 sleepers built between 1916 and 1930, and in revenue service until the Hogarth, New Haven No. 790, was condemned February 1953. There were five 12-1's (Pullman Plans 2410 and 3410), two 12-2 (former 12-1 Pullman Plan 3410), one 14 section (Pullman Plan 3958), four 10-1-2 (Pullman Plan 2585), two 8-5 (Pullman Plan 3993), ten 14 single bed rooms (Pullman Plan 3980), one 3-2-1-SunRm Obs (Pullman Plan 3991), two 1-2-2-2 Lge (Pullman Plan 3995), one 6 SBRM - 22 lge seat (Pullman Plan 3994), one 6-3 (Pullman Plan 3523), and the three Tower cars discussed above. I have the lot numbers, names, New Haven numbers, and condemned dates on each car if you want them.
Hope this help you some.
Richrad H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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rsullivan
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Joined: 3:36 PM - Dec 14, 2016

3:53 PM - Nov 08, 2017 #3

Mr. Jim. According to Mr. J. W. Swanberg in his New Haven Power 1938-1968 (1988), he relates that the New Haven had a fleet of wooden sleeper cars made in the New Haven's car shops and by Wagner that were part of the 252 sleeper and parlor cars sold to Pullman on January 1, 1913. Pullman then assigned the former New Haven cars anywhere on the Pullman system, with the New Haven mostly receiving steel sleeper cars assignments from Pullman. Many of the former New Haven sleepers lasted in revenue service into the early 1930's. These would be the 76 sleepers I discussed in the previous comment, and none were identified on the data sheets as built by New Haven shops. However, I have been told there are errors on the data sheets so don't ever discount anything Mr. Swanberg says. In the section on Steel Cars, he has a picture of Night Light (New Haven No. 757, built 1928, Pullman Plan 3980, Lot 6158, 14 SBRM) with Pullman on the letterboard on page 528, and a picture of Orchard Dale (New Haven No. 748, built 1930, Pullman Plan 3993, Lot 6288, 8 Section - 5 SBRM) in New Haven two-tone Gray on page 529.
Hope that helps with some of the pictures.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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Joined: 11:36 AM - Nov 08, 2017

4:07 PM - Nov 08, 2017 #4

Richard, Thank you for the information.  It is helpful.

Jim
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eshoben
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Joined: 12:08 AM - Jul 09, 2003

4:08 PM - Nov 08, 2017 #5

Jim-

Suggest you google "pullman project" and find Tom Madden's database.  There you will see that sleeping cars were, with very few exceptions, owned by the Pullman company up until 1948 when the anti-trust suit forced Pullman to sell their sleepers to the railroads.  Thus, in your period of interest, all of the sleepers on the New Haven were Pullman owned.  -Ed
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Joined: 11:36 AM - Nov 08, 2017

4:29 PM - Nov 14, 2017 #6

Thanks to all of you who have responded to my inquiry. I now have another one. The Roster of Pullman Heavyweight Sleepers listed for the New Haven includes several different plan numbers for the 14-SB cars. These are Plan 3958, Plan 3980B, Plan 3980, and Plan 3980A. What is the difference between these plans. I have been unable to find any reference to the 3980 plans in my research.
Jim.
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eshoben
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Joined: 12:08 AM - Jul 09, 2003

5:26 PM - Nov 14, 2017 #7

jimmygnewhaven2017 wrote: Thanks to all of you who have responded to my inquiry. I now have another one. The Roster of Pullman Heavyweight Sleepers listed for the New Haven includes several different plan numbers for the 14-SB cars. These are Plan 3958, Plan 3980B, Plan 3980, and Plan 3980A. What is the difference between these plans. I have been unable to find any reference to the 3980 plans in my research.
Jim.
Jim-

The only plan 3958 sleeper the NJ had was the 14 Section New Franklin.  The single bedroom cars were in the Night series.  Differences among 3980, 3980A, and 3980B were slight, such as replacing the fixed bed with a sofa bed ( I don't recall the details) or the like.  Externally, they differed little if at all.  A more important external difference is that they varied in the kind of A/C they had.  Some were ice air-conditioned.  Night Haven, Night Cove, and Night Trail were plan 3980B.  Night Land, and Night Lea were 3980A.  The other five were 3980.

All of this information (and much more) can be found in Tom Madden's invaluable database.  Type "Pullman Project" into Google to find it.  -Ed Shoben
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Joined: 11:36 AM - Nov 08, 2017

2:47 PM - Dec 13, 2017 #8

rsullivan wrote: Mr. Jim. Going through the NHRTI and NHRHTA Standing Data Sheets 5.105 through 5.148, I didn't find any 8-1-2 sleepers. There were three (3) 8 sections-1 DR- 3DB Rms Pullman sleepers built 1925 -1926 New Haven numbers 730 Bok Tower (built - 1925, Pullman Plan 4090, Lot 4836, Ex - Point Arguello, condemned 7/1962), 731 Breslin Tower (built - 1925, Pullman Plan 4090, Lot 4846, Ex - Point Bank, condemned 7/62), and 732 Victoria Tower (built - 1926, Pullman Plan 4090, Lot 4961, Ex - Point Willoughby, condemned 7/62). The problem is with the 1920-1930 time frame. At that time the cars were 10-2 and 10-1 sleepers, converted to 8-1-3 configuration in 1939. Original paint scheme was Pullman's standard with Pullman Green and Pullman centered on the letterboard, changing when New Haven took ownership. Bok Tower had a repaint on September 28, 1949, so the green used should be Hunter Green with probably Imitation Aluminum lettering (unresolved question according to Dr. Horvath), repainted March 1, 1954, in Pullman Green with White lettering, and again in August 15, 1957, in two-tone Gray with White lettering. Breslin Tower was the original Pullman Green and Pullman centered on the letterboard, the name changing to New Haven, repainted January 1, 1954, in Pullman Green with White lettering, and repainted  in August 14, 1957, in two-tone Gray with White lettering. Victoria Tower was in the original Pullman scheme in PRR red with gold lettering Pullman centered on the letterboard, repainted in PRR red with New Haven in Gold lettering on April 22, 1949 and February 5, 1953, and repainted in March 14, 1956, in two-tone Gray with White lettering. (Paint information from Dr. Horvath) Models of these cars are available with decals in HO scale from Bethleham Car Works. They have specially made car sides, and interiors you have to build to the plans.
Between 1871 and 1911, the New Haven had 73 sleepers from Bradley, Barney & Smith, Harlan & Hollingsworth, Wagner, and Pullman. Forty-three of these made in revenue service past 1920, with the last one (Barney & Smith 10 compartments, Pullman Plan 3208, New Haven No. 2049, Waturus) being destroyed August 1937. The New Haven had 24 sleepers built between 1916 and 1930, and in revenue service until the Hogarth, New Haven No. 790, was condemned February 1953. There were five 12-1's (Pullman Plans 2410 and 3410), two 12-2 (former 12-1 Pullman Plan 3410), one 14 section (Pullman Plan 3958), four 10-1-2 (Pullman Plan 2585), two 8-5 (Pullman Plan 3993), ten 14 single bed rooms (Pullman Plan 3980), one 3-2-1-SunRm Obs (Pullman Plan 3991), two 1-2-2-2 Lge (Pullman Plan 3995), one 6 SBRM - 22 lge seat (Pullman Plan 3994), one 6-3 (Pullman Plan 3523), and the three Tower cars discussed above. I have the lot numbers, names, New Haven numbers, and condemned dates on each car if you want them.
Hope this help you some.
Richrad H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
Richard;
Thanks for the information. I have two more questions for anyone that can answer.  First, is there a significant difference between the floor plan and external appearance between the 14 Section plan 3958 and 14-SB plan 3980? Second, could I use the 14 Section as a substitute for the 14-SB without it being too obvious? If someone has pictures of these two configurations, that would also be helpful. Thanks.
Jim Gillette
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eshoben
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Joined: 12:08 AM - Jul 09, 2003

3:05 PM - Dec 13, 2017 #9

Jim-

The drawings are available from the Newberry Library.  Here is the one for the single bedroom cars:

http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/c ... 4315/rec/8

and here is the one for the 14 section cars:

http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/c ... 164/rec/17

I'll leave it to you to decide if you can substitute one for the other.

-Ed Shoben
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