rsullivan
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Joined: 3:36 PM - Dec 14, 2016

10:46 PM - Aug 22, 2017 #11

Mr. Franzosa. After reading from Mr. J.W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1838 - 1968 (1988), page 504, "Small single tone air horns were on each end and were unfavorably compared to a goose, about 1955 these were replaced with Hancock whistles as used on the new diesels and EP-5 electrics, ..." After looking for the note of Leslie Tyfon with lengths around 15" (what they appear to be when measured against the headlights in the pictures) on web article LocomotiveHorn.info - Tyfon, A-75-330 plays note E with a length of 16 11/16", A-125-227 plays note C# with a length of 16 3/4", and A-125-311 plays note D# with a length of 15 11/32". A web search for the notes made by geese revealed multiple notes with a certain resonance. A web search for which Leslie, Nathan and WEBCO single tone air horns sounded like a goose had only one lead. Model Railroader Forum, thread topic "Horn Sounds with LokSound decoders." Mr. rrinke posted a reply on November 12, 2008 that included both the Leslie and WABCO single tone honkers made a sound that was "...not pleasing - a dirty one sounds like a dying goose." A web search for the WABCO A-2 resulted in Worthpoint article "WABCO AA-2 Train Horn Vintage" which describe the dual tone air horn as 15 1/5" long and 11 1/2" long with pictures that show a rounded base fastened to the trumpet with ribs that extend between 1/4 and 1/3 the length of the trumpet. I compared the pictures with the pictures in the Shoreliner, vol 24, iss 2, article "New Haven RDC." All the air horns look like the long trumpet on the AA-2. I then compared the pictures in Mr. Robert A. Liljestrand's and Mr. David R. Sweetland's New Haven Diesel Locomotives: Volume 2 (no date) with the pictures of the FB-1 DER-2b and FB-2 DER-2c on pages 42 and 43. The RDC and the FB-1 and FB-2 air horns look alike to me. So, I would say the RDC was equipped initially with 2 x WABCO A-2, replaced in 1955 with 2 x MM&M Model 4703 (Hancock Air Chime).
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr. member #3967
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rfranzosa
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Joined: 6:55 AM - Oct 17, 2005

12:21 PM - Aug 23, 2017 #12

rsullivan wrote: Mr. Franzosa. After reading from Mr. J.W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1838 - 1968 (1988), page 504, "Small single tone air horns were on each end and were unfavorably compared to a goose, about 1955 these were replaced with Hancock whistles as used on the new diesels and EP-5 electrics, ..." After looking for the note of Leslie Tyfon with lengths around 15" (what they appear to be when measured against the headlights in the pictures) on web article LocomotiveHorn.info - Tyfon, A-75-330 plays note E with a length of 16 11/16", A-125-227 plays note C# with a length of 16 3/4", and A-125-311 plays note D# with a length of 15 11/32". A web search for the notes made by geese revealed multiple notes with a certain resonance. A web search for which Leslie, Nathan and WEBCO single tone air horns sounded like a goose had only one lead. Model Railroader Forum, thread topic "Horn Sounds with LokSound decoders." Mr. rrinke posted a reply on November 12, 2008 that included both the Leslie and WABCO single tone honkers made a sound that was "...not pleasing - a dirty one sounds like a dying goose." A web search for the WABCO A-2 resulted in Worthpoint article "WABCO AA-2 Train Horn Vintage" which describe the dual tone air horn as 15 1/5" long and 11 1/2" long with pictures that show a rounded base fastened to the trumpet with ribs that extend between 1/4 and 1/3 the length of the trumpet. I compared the pictures with the pictures in the Shoreliner, vol 24, iss 2, article "New Haven RDC." All the air horns look like the long trumpet on the AA-2. I then compared the pictures in Mr. Robert A. Liljestrand's and Mr. David R. Sweetland's New Haven Diesel Locomotives: Volume 2 (no date) with the pictures of the FB-1 DER-2b and FB-2 DER-2c on pages 42 and 43. The RDC and the FB-1 and FB-2 air horns look alike to me. So, I would say the RDC was equipped initially with 2 x WABCO A-2, replaced in 1955 with 2 x MM&M Model 4703 (Hancock Air Chime).
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr. member #3967
That sounds about right, Mr. Sullivan.  Thanks.   

Anyone have a lead on the DERS8?

Thanks

Rick Franzosa
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rsullivan
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5:35 PM - Aug 23, 2017 #13

Mr. Franzosa. I looked up the section on the Alco C-425 DERS-8 in Mr. J.W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1838 - 1968 (1988), and he did not mention the type of horn used. The pictures looking upwards on page 454 and down on page 455 clearly show a two-tone air horn with the longer trumpet on the engineer’s side and small diameter flat-back power chambers behind a narrow mounting bracket. I then looked at the pictures in Mr. Robert A. Liljestrand's and Mr. David R. Sweetland's New Haven Diesel Locomotives: Volume 1 (no date) on page 46 and 47, and the sharper focus shows the flat, small diameter power chamber of the two trumpets. Shoreliner, vol 12, iss 3, article by Mr. Rolly Osmun titled “Modeling the New Haven’s Alco C-425’s” said to use Detail Associates part #AH1601 – Nathan horn, using horn 1 and 4. The picture of the finished model on page 26 doesn’t show the power chamber well enough to determine if the diameter is small or larger, and the back is round or flat. A web search for images of the Nathan two-tone railroad air horns showed the two-tone, and all the other railroad air horns, had large diameter power chambers which were between 2/3rd to 3/4th the diameter of the trumpet’s end flare. A web search for images of the Leslie Supertyfon two-tone railroad air horns showed the two-tone, and all the other railroad air horns, had small diameter, shallow power chambers. Based on the power chamber shape and diameter, I would conclude the air horn used on the DERS-8’s was Leslie Supertyfon. LocomotiveHorn.info – Leslie, indicated that the Leslie Supertyfon’s had a flatback power chamber until 1966, then the dome-back power chamber was adopted. That further supports the Leslie Supertyfon since the DERS-8 was produced in 1964/65. LocomotiveHorn.info – Supertyfon, indicated that Leslie classified the air horns with a “S” then the number of trumpets. So, the horns on the DERS-8 would be S-2. If the notes played are known, the horns would be S-2A – C, D#; S-2B – D#, F#; S-2D – F#; S-2G – D#, C#; S-2H – F#, A#; and S-2M – D#, A. As far as modeling the horns in HO scale, Detail Associates no longer produces part #AH1601 according to catalogs online. Cal Scale has a line of Nathan air horns which all look like the images online except part #AO-400 – Nathan Diesel Air Horn (brass casting) 3-chime w/ mounting bracket. The illustration appears to show a small power chamber, but while the rear facing horn can be cut off, the long trumpet is on the fireman’s side. Precision Scale Company offers a Leslie 3-chime air horn, but it has the same problem as the Cal Scale with the long trumpet on the fireman’s side. It does come in brass and plastic so may be easier to modify. So, my conclusion is the Alco C-425 DERS-8: Leslie Supertyfon S-2(A – M depending upon the notes played).
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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Run 8
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Run 8
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8:29 PM - Aug 23, 2017 #14

At least one of the C425's sported a Hancock 4700, but that was probably added later.
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rfranzosa
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Joined: 6:55 AM - Oct 17, 2005

11:46 AM - Aug 25, 2017 #15

rsullivan wrote: Mr. Franzosa. I looked up the section on the Alco C-425 DERS-8 in Mr. J.W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1838 - 1968 (1988), and he did not mention the type of horn used. The pictures looking upwards on page 454 and down on page 455 clearly show a two-tone air horn with the longer trumpet on the engineer’s side and small diameter flat-back power chambers behind a narrow mounting bracket. I then looked at the pictures in Mr. Robert A. Liljestrand's and Mr. David R. Sweetland's New Haven Diesel Locomotives: Volume 1 (no date) on page 46 and 47, and the sharper focus shows the flat, small diameter power chamber of the two trumpets. Shoreliner, vol 12, iss 3, article by Mr. Rolly Osmun titled “Modeling the New Haven’s Alco C-425’s” said to use Detail Associates part #AH1601 – Nathan horn, using horn 1 and 4. The picture of the finished model on page 26 doesn’t show the power chamber well enough to determine if the diameter is small or larger, and the back is round or flat. A web search for images of the Nathan two-tone railroad air horns showed the two-tone, and all the other railroad air horns, had large diameter power chambers which were between 2/3rd to 3/4th the diameter of the trumpet’s end flare. A web search for images of the Leslie Supertyfon two-tone railroad air horns showed the two-tone, and all the other railroad air horns, had small diameter, shallow power chambers. Based on the power chamber shape and diameter, I would conclude the air horn used on the DERS-8’s was Leslie Supertyfon. LocomotiveHorn.info – Leslie, indicated that the Leslie Supertyfon’s had a flatback power chamber until 1966, then the dome-back power chamber was adopted. That further supports the Leslie Supertyfon since the DERS-8 was produced in 1964/65. LocomotiveHorn.info – Supertyfon, indicated that Leslie classified the air horns with a “S” then the number of trumpets. So, the horns on the DERS-8 would be S-2. If the notes played are known, the horns would be S-2A – C, D#; S-2B – D#, F#; S-2D – F#; S-2G – D#, C#; S-2H – F#, A#; and S-2M – D#, A. As far as modeling the horns in HO scale, Detail Associates no longer produces part #AH1601 according to catalogs online. Cal Scale has a line of Nathan air horns which all look like the images online except part #AO-400 – Nathan Diesel Air Horn (brass casting) 3-chime w/ mounting bracket. The illustration appears to show a small power chamber, but while the rear facing horn can be cut off, the long trumpet is on the fireman’s side. Precision Scale Company offers a Leslie 3-chime air horn, but it has the same problem as the Cal Scale with the long trumpet on the fireman’s side. It does come in brass and plastic so may be easier to modify. So, my conclusion is the Alco C-425 DERS-8: Leslie Supertyfon S-2(A – M depending upon the notes played).
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
Interesting deduction.  New Haven seemed to favor Leslie and Hancock, works for me (unless someone knows otherwise).  Thanks, Mr. Sullivan
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NHJJ4
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10:31 AM - Aug 27, 2017 #16

rfranzosa wrote:
rsullivan wrote: Mr. Franzosa. I looked up the section on the Alco C-425 DERS-8 in Mr. J.W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1838 - 1968 (1988), and he did not mention the type of horn used. The pictures looking upwards on page 454 and down on page 455 clearly show a two-tone air horn with the longer trumpet on the engineer’s side and small diameter flat-back power chambers behind a narrow mounting bracket. I then looked at the pictures in Mr. Robert A. Liljestrand's and Mr. David R. Sweetland's New Haven Diesel Locomotives: Volume 1 (no date) on page 46 and 47, and the sharper focus shows the flat, small diameter power chamber of the two trumpets. Shoreliner, vol 12, iss 3, article by Mr. Rolly Osmun titled “Modeling the New Haven’s Alco C-425’s” said to use Detail Associates part #AH1601 – Nathan horn, using horn 1 and 4. The picture of the finished model on page 26 doesn’t show the power chamber well enough to determine if the diameter is small or larger, and the back is round or flat. A web search for images of the Nathan two-tone railroad air horns showed the two-tone, and all the other railroad air horns, had large diameter power chambers which were between 2/3rd to 3/4th the diameter of the trumpet’s end flare. A web search for images of the Leslie Supertyfon two-tone railroad air horns showed the two-tone, and all the other railroad air horns, had small diameter, shallow power chambers. Based on the power chamber shape and diameter, I would conclude the air horn used on the DERS-8’s was Leslie Supertyfon. LocomotiveHorn.info – Leslie, indicated that the Leslie Supertyfon’s had a flatback power chamber until 1966, then the dome-back power chamber was adopted. That further supports the Leslie Supertyfon since the DERS-8 was produced in 1964/65. LocomotiveHorn.info – Supertyfon, indicated that Leslie classified the air horns with a “S” then the number of trumpets. So, the horns on the DERS-8 would be S-2. If the notes played are known, the horns would be S-2A – C, D#; S-2B – D#, F#; S-2D – F#; S-2G – D#, C#; S-2H – F#, A#; and S-2M – D#, A. As far as modeling the horns in HO scale, Detail Associates no longer produces part #AH1601 according to catalogs online. Cal Scale has a line of Nathan air horns which all look like the images online except part #AO-400 – Nathan Diesel Air Horn (brass casting) 3-chime w/ mounting bracket. The illustration appears to show a small power chamber, but while the rear facing horn can be cut off, the long trumpet is on the fireman’s side. Precision Scale Company offers a Leslie 3-chime air horn, but it has the same problem as the Cal Scale with the long trumpet on the fireman’s side. It does come in brass and plastic so may be easier to modify. So, my conclusion is the Alco C-425 DERS-8: Leslie Supertyfon S-2(A – M depending upon the notes played).
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
Interesting deduction.  New Haven seemed to favor Leslie and Hancock, works for me (unless someone knows otherwise).  Thanks, Mr. Sullivan
  People seam to miss the short horn / bell  on the firemans side of the C 425 Not sure of the mounting Long hood or rear of cab.
So actually  they had a 3 chime  2 forward / 1 back

Jim
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rsullivan
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11:03 AM - Aug 27, 2017 #17

Thanks Mr. Jim(NHJJ4). Until you mentioned it, I have never seen it in any pictures. I went back though a bunch of books, and I think I can barely see the trumpet just above the fireman's window on DERS-8 Alco C-425 #2551 on page 46 of Mr. Robert A. Liljestrand's and Mr. David R. Sweetland's New Haven Diesel Locomotives: Volume 1 (no date). It is so short, I could not see any sign of it in the downward view of #2455 at Cedar Hill engine terminal on page 455 of Mr. J.W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1836 - 1968. I did not see any signs of an air horn anywhere else along the side, top or rear on the fireman's side or the engineer's side on any of the DERS-8's pictured. I couldn't find where Leslie had a classification for an air horn system that was not connected at a single source. So, it probably would have been classified as a S-1 with the letter designating the tone the horn sounded. So, I suggest the correct horn would be Leslie Supertyfon S-2(whatever letter designation for the tone) and Leslie Supertyfon S-1(whatever letter designation for the tone).
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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NHJJ4
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NHJJ4
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2:18 PM - Aug 27, 2017 #18

 There are not many shots showing it but then a black horn on a black unit   well it won't show up much
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NHJJ4
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NHJJ4
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2:44 PM - Aug 27, 2017 #19

 I went back and checked  On ( Fallen Flag site ) NH 2553 side shot you can look and it would appear that it is cab mounted short and at the top of the side where the round curve starts for the roof. Then when looking at 3/4 view shots knowing where to look you can see the bell of it if ya look close. But that is alright I have an OMI 425 Tank Drive and it doesn't have it. When done it will !!
 Along with all my Atlas units LOL.

Jim
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rfranzosa
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Joined: 6:55 AM - Oct 17, 2005

2:56 PM - Aug 27, 2017 #20

I found some examples on other roads C425s...  

http://www.railroadmichigan.com/dm181s1.jpg

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=407663

But then I saw this.....  NH 2558 - Clearly no third horn!!

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=373605

Rick Franzosa
#0697
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