Ed ORourke
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Joined: October 4th, 2008, 9:50 pm

August 10th, 2018, 10:19 am #11

Re the cars in the background, the one on the right, with the roof AC duct is lettered New Haven. Can't read the car name. The one on the left appears to be lettered Pullman. Not surprising considering this is probably 1948 - 50 or so. Someone with better knowledge of Pullman configuration could weigh in on what they might be. Came in on a morning train and/or going out on an evening train?
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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

August 10th, 2018, 3:52 pm #12

Mr. Ed. I enlarged the picture and counted five letters in the first word of the name and four letters in the second word of the name. I then looked through NHRTI - 5.105 to 5.112 List No. 1 - Numerical Series Roster - 1971-1964 Standing Data and NHRHTA - 5.115 to 5.141 List No. 2 - New York, New Haven & Hartford R.R. Parlor, Sleeper & Dining Cars Standing Data. All the cars that had names with that letter combination were off the roster by 1930 on NHRTI - 5.105 to 5.112 List No. 1 - Numerical Series Roster - 1971-1964 Standing Data. In the NHRHTA - 5.115 to 5.141 List No. 2 - New York, New Haven & Hartford R.R. Parlor, Sleeper & Dining Cars Standing Data, only NH #2065, Woods Hole, Pullman Plan 3916, Lot 6077 on page 5.130, NH #750, Night Cove, Pullman Plan 3980, Lot 6304 and NH #755, Night Land, Pullman Plan 3980, Lot 6158 on page 5.133. The window configuration of the Night series sleepers on the air conditioning duct side does not match that in the picture, see page 528 in Mr. J. W. Swanberg's New Haven Power 1838 - 1968 (1988). Since the Woods Hole became an 88 seat Coach 612 in August 1949, I looked up Mr. Wayne Drummond's "Butterflies to Caterpillars" article in Shoreliner, vol. 21, iss. 3. I couldn't find a picture of the Woods Hole in the article, nor the window configuration of men's sloon, eight double windows, and woman's saloon of any of the Pullman Plan 3916 parlor cars.
So, my conclusion without photo evidence to support it, is the right hand side car lettered for the New Haven was the parlor car NH #2065 Woods Hole prior to its August 1949 conversion to Coach #612. This falls within the timeframe that DER-2a 0418 operating in the Warm Orange delivery scheme that started in 1947.
I'm clueless on the Pullman car.
Richard #3967
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nhhe52
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Joined: March 26th, 2004, 12:19 am

August 10th, 2018, 6:30 pm #13

Richard:

You must have been a detective in your previous life.

Nice work,

Ed
Last edited by nhhe52 on August 10th, 2018, 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nhhe52
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Joined: March 26th, 2004, 12:19 am

August 10th, 2018, 6:33 pm #14

Richard:

Just to torture you, what’s the name of the Pullman car?  Just kidding, seriously, please don’t bother.

Ed
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Vandibe
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Vandibe
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August 10th, 2018, 7:39 pm #15

I hereby nominate Richard Sullivan for the NHRHTA Supreme Research Committee, to serve as the Chief Research Justice for a life appointment...

Dodd who? We have a Richard!


Eric
#5645

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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

August 10th, 2018, 10:20 pm #16

Mr. Ed(nhhe52). On the Pullman car I counted nine letters in the car's name, but they were too much out of focus to try and venture a name. It does appear to be a one word name. There is no saloon window visible, and only seven closely spaced pairs of windows which goes just past the word PULLMAN on the letterboard. It is almost like this is the aisle side of the car with drawing rooms or compartments on the far side. I don't have a lot of Pullman car pictures and when I searched for images online, I never found that mix of windows and spacings. That was why I said, "I'm clueless on the Pullman car."
Richard #3967
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Ed ORourke
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Joined: October 4th, 2008, 9:50 pm

August 11th, 2018, 9:39 am #17

The paired windows are probably open sections, and Richard is likely correct that bedrooms, etc. are on the other side, which is why no AC duct on the roof. It must be on the other side unless this is an un-airconditioned car, which seems unlikely in 1950.

Ed
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TomE
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TomE
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Joined: September 21st, 2004, 8:55 pm

August 12th, 2018, 8:08 am #18

My good friend John Horvath provided me with the following insights:

“The background of this photo shows three HW parlor cars although IDs are only possible for two of them. To begin with, for reasons I will give in a minute I date this photo as between June 1949 and April 1951, probably closer to the earlier date. 

Starting with the car on the left, the key detail is the unpainted brass sashes. Pullman started using them as an alternative to the traditional painted wooden sashes fairly late in the HW era, circa 1928. So that makes it one of the cars built in 1930 for assignment to the “Yankee Clipper”. Based on the window and vent pattern, this is clearly a Plan 4001 car with 34 chairs (there were two other plans or types built for this train in 1930). The NH owned only four cars of this plan and based on my assessment of the lettering I make this to be GREAT REPUBLIC, a car that exists to the present I believe. At the time of this photo, it had last been shopped in Buffalo, NY in April 1947 and would not be repainted into a NH scheme until July 1953 when shopped in Wilmington, DE. Interestingly, this car had been out of Pullman lease temporarily for almost all of 1948 and much of 1949 but remained painted in Pullman livery. This car had Pullman electromechanical (EM) AC with Westinghouse control hardware. EM AC was a favorite of the NH even when these cars were still Pullman owned. Almost half of the 97 HW parlors acquired by the NH in 1945 were so equipped. Interestingly, the four cars of Plan 4001 spent most of their lives on the NH as spare cars, only being assigned to seasonal service to Cape Cod and then the Berkshires in the 1950s.

The next car is clearly a parlor and not a sleeper as it has a wide deck (clerestory) and the square AC duct typical of such cars. The window arrangement indicates that it is a Plan 3917A car with 32 chairs and one drawing room. Based on the NH paint scheme and the fact that this car also has EM AC (also with Westinghouse hardware, some cars had GE control hardware), this limits the choices of names significantly. I make this out to be PELHAM MANOR. It was repainted at Pullman’s Wilmington, DE shop in June 1949 and was actually the very first HW parlor repainted into a NH scheme which is curious as this car and its mates had been relegated to Spare status once the LW parlors arrived in 1948. The paint job looks fairly new on this car so I would say that this photo may well have been taken sometime in the latter half of 1949. This car was removed from Pullman operational lease for good in early April 1951 (it had been temporarily withdrawn from lease for several months in 1948) and was eventually rebuilt to coach #650 with 71 seats in late 1953.
 
There is a third parlor on the extreme right, another car with unpainted brass window sashes. But there is not enough detail to make any assessment as to car type and name.”
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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

August 12th, 2018, 10:47 am #19

Mr. TomE. If Dr. Horvath provided that info, it has to be spot on and my counting of the blurred lettering faulty. Thanks much for the update.
Richard #3967
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TomE
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TomE
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August 14th, 2018, 12:54 pm #20

Here's a follow-on from Dr. John Horvath; he is a super sleuth when it comes to Pullman built equipment.

Upon further reflection, I’m pretty sure that the third parlor car just peeking out in the right-hand side of THE photo is another Plan 4001 car. Again, the unpainted brass window sashes tell us that it’s likely one of the four (I said three previously, my error) plans/types of parlors built new in 1930 for assignment to the “Yankee Clipper”. These were Plans 3999, 4000A, 4001, and 4002. I forgot about the Plan 3999 parlor-lounges when I was crafting my initial thoughts about this photo. Pullman assigned four straight parlors (two each from Plans 4000A and 4001) and two parlor-lounges (one each from Plans 3999 and 4002)…one with an enclosed faux observation end (p4002)…to each consist of this train initially although it was soon cut back to only two straight parlors (p4000A) and two parlor-lounges (p3999 and p4002) due to the Depression. The four cars built to Plan 4001 were the ones that were dropped from this train early on. Curiously, they were the only ones of this group that got EM AC. The eight cars total from Plans 3999, 4000A, and 4002 that remained assigned to the “YC” all got Ice AC which seems strange to me seeing as how this train would have been serviced in the NYC’s Mott Haven Yard in the Bronx and we all know how the NYC eschewed Ice AC and even brine tanks for PM AC as being problematic with its third rail.
 
In any event, the other visual key in this photo is that only the four Plan 4001 cars had two closely spaced windows all the way at the left end of each side. The window closer to the vestibule was the saloon (toilet) and the other window was the adjoining lavatory. Since the roof of some building obscures the clerestory and roof of the parlor car, I can’t tell which gender accommodations are showing. The window arrangements are the same for each but the men’s saloon would have a powered vent on the clerestory whereas the women’s a Garland vent. This was standard Pullman vent placement over saloons on both parlors and sleepers. One can draw their own conclusions as to why Pullman felt that the men’s toilet needed active (powered) ventilation whereas the women’s toilet got by with passive ventilation that worked only when the train was in motion. No comment from me.
 
So, this third car is either DONALD McKAY, JAMES BAINES, or SOVEREIGN OF THE SEAS as GREAT REPUBLIC is already visible and accounted for. None of these four cars got a NH painting and lettering scheme until mid-1953 and even then JAMES BAINES never got repainted while still in Pullman operation (which ended in 1956).

Tom E Thompson
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