Electrics at Work

An open forum to discuss all aspects of the New Haven Railroad.
nhhe52
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004, 05:19

13 Oct 2017, 13:08 #51

rsullivan wrote: Mr. Ed(nhhe52) I'm not sure if this is what you are asking for. 


Fig 13 - Section Insulator diagram pic 3.jpg
The figure 13 is a trolley section break insulator. It "consists of two bronze end castings, to which the ends of the trolley wire are bolted. Two parallel sections of impregnated hardwood are fastened to these castings, and to these wooden strips are fastened renewable pieces of trolley wire in such a manner that the ends of these renewable pieces overlap one another in distance along the track, although the two wires are electrically distinct. By this means it is possible for the sliding contact on the locomotive to pass from one section to the next without opening the circuit, thus avoiding all flashing." Street Railway Journal, Vol. XXX, No. 7, Page 251. Page 252 of the same issue of the Journal there is a picture of the Section Insulators in place on triangular cantenary at a section bridge with a crossover trolley wire for an on ground switch. This sounds like the mechanism used for all sections to allow the transition from one section to the next regardless of catenary style. I hope this is what you were looking for.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr. member #3967
Thanks Richard:

This appears to address how the trolley wire sections are spliced.  I’m inquiring how the different suspension systems transitioned.

Regards,

Ed
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rsullivan
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Joined: 14 Dec 2016, 20:36

13 Oct 2017, 14:07 #52

Mr. Ed(nhhe52). Okay, I wasn't really sure. I'll look through the old issues I have of various period journals that covered the erection and maintenance of the catenary system for the three different types of catenary used by the New Haven in the electric zone. If I find a written description only, I will still post it also.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr. member #3967
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DBrion
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006, 05:52

13 Oct 2017, 17:42 #53

Just as a guess, wouldn't the transition have occurred at an anchor bridge somewhere east of Stamford? 
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rsullivan
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Joined: 14 Dec 2016, 20:36

13 Oct 2017, 20:59 #54

Mr. DBrion. That is where the Section Insulators were used, and the picture on page 252 of that issue of Street Railway Journal is where the Section Insulators are directly under the anchor bridge. Since I thought the changes in the types of catenary would occur at the anchor bridges because of the different tension being applied by the messengers of each type requiring the support of an anchor bridge to negate the effects of the stress caused by the tension variations on the upright tower members, I thought the Section Insulator was the right one. I have found another called a Flexible Section Break that is illustrated and described on page 56 of Electric Railway Journal, Vol. XLVI, No. 2. It refers to the New Haven's three types of catenary construction used as double, compound, and single. But the descriptions that follow seems to be addressing the contact wires, and doesn't seem to match the descriptions in the article in Electric Railway Journal, Vol. XLIV, No. 9. This article compares the various types of catenary in use around the world and has diagrams on page 393 of each type. Including side and frontal drawings of all three of the New Haven types. Unfortunately, it doesn't address the change over of the types. I've got about 25 or more different journals to read still.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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nhhe52
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004, 05:19

25 Oct 2017, 00:17 #55

rsullivan wrote: Mr. DBrion. That is where the Section Insulators were used, and the picture on page 252 of that issue of Street Railway Journal is where the Section Insulators are directly under the anchor bridge. Since I thought the changes in the types of catenary would occur at the anchor bridges because of the different tension being applied by the messengers of each type requiring the support of an anchor bridge to negate the effects of the stress caused by the tension variations on the upright tower members, I thought the Section Insulator was the right one. I have found another called a Flexible Section Break that is illustrated and described on page 56 of Electric Railway Journal, Vol. XLVI, No. 2. It refers to the New Haven's three types of catenary construction used as double, compound, and single. But the descriptions that follow seems to be addressing the contact wires, and doesn't seem to match the descriptions in the article in Electric Railway Journal, Vol. XLIV, No. 9. This article compares the various types of catenary in use around the world and has diagrams on page 393 of each type. Including side and frontal drawings of all three of the New Haven types. Unfortunately, it doesn't address the change over of the types. I've got about 25 or more different journals to read still.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
I have been unable to find and image or literature regarding how the transition of NH wire types physically occurred.  Details aside, ccurring at an anchor bridge, lacking any other evidence, would seam logical.

Ed
Last edited by nhhe52 on 25 Oct 2017, 10:15, edited 1 time in total.
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rsullivan
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Joined: 14 Dec 2016, 20:36

25 Oct 2017, 04:56 #56

Mr. DBrion. Here is a picture of the Flexible Section Break I mentioned earlier. I couldn't find anything else, and I think this is what was used at the junction of the different types of cantenary. 
Contact System-Flexible Section Break New Haven System.jpg
Flexible Section Break Diagram

Here are the diagrams of the three types of cantenary used by the New Haven RR as presented on page 393 of Electric Railway Journal, Vol. XLIV (14), no. 9.

Catenary Construction-Typical Examples of Heavy Electric Railway Suspension on New Haven RR.jpg
Diagram of the Three Types of Catenary Used by the New Haven RR
I don't know if these help any, or are absolutely correct. I think they are the best information available I have found.

Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  member #3967
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TomCurtin
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Joined: 13 Jul 2017, 14:13

25 Oct 2017, 15:25 #57

rsullivan wrote:
Here are the diagrams of the three types of cantenary used by the New Haven RR as presented on page 393 of Electric Railway Journal, Vol. XLIV (14), no. 9.
These look pretty good to me Richard.

Of course there's one kind missing: the single track H-column construction use on the Danbury line.  It's missing for a good reason:  that Electric Railway Journal was published 11 years before Danbury was done!!
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nhhe52
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004, 05:19

25 Oct 2017, 16:31 #58

There was also a single messenger version suspended bridge-to-bridge like the triangular wire:

This image appears to show the transition from single messenger wire suspended directly from bridges (not beam suspended) beyond the anchor bridge to triangular wire in the foreground at an anchor bridge near Stamford, which would confirm Dick's suggestion that wire type transition would occur at anchor bridges.  However, note that the triangular suspension does not originate at the bridge but appears to transition from single messenger prior to the anchor bridge.

This image was from the 1970's (notice the MU cars in the distance) so may not be representative of wire type transition in the 1950's and before.

Ed

VIEW_EAST_TOWARD_STAMFORD_ANCHOR_BRIDGE_-374_OF_CIRCUIT_BREAKER_INSTALLATION_ON_CROSS_BEAM_OF_BRIDGE._-_New_York,_New_Haven_and_Hartford_Railroad,_Bridge-Type_Circuit_Breakers,_HAER_CONN,1.jpg
Last edited by nhhe52 on 25 Oct 2017, 21:23, edited 2 times in total.
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rsullivan
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Joined: 14 Dec 2016, 20:36

25 Oct 2017, 19:05 #59

Mr. Ed(nhhe52) that is the Type 1 Model Memories sells for their New Haven catenary systems that I have on hand for constructing my catenary. They also have a Type 3 which is two parallel straight messenger and contact wires with even, short clips/connectors, and a Type 2 transition section to connect Types 1 and 3 together. I have the Type 1 since I'm starting on the Harlem Branch and that is the type I see in the pictures. Would the Type 3 be used to model the Early and Latest McHenry-Murray catenary for Glenbrook, and the Stamford to New Haven sections of catenary? Both types of McHenry-Murray catenary appear to have shallow arcs in the secondary messenger which the upper wire of the Type 3 would represent, I think? Or, is there a section that the Type 3 is correct for, and there was no messenger curvature or sag? This is both for personal knowledge and planning. Thanks.
Richard H. Sullivan, Jr.  memebr #3967
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nhhe52
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004, 05:19

25 Oct 2017, 20:15 #60

Richard:

I'm no expert (those in the know please correct) but from images I believe the Type 3 wire (single messenger) was used over switches, sidings and yards during the triangular wire use.  It was used at Stamford over mainlines, suspended from wire suspended from towers and directly from bridges.  It can be also be used on mainlines to replicate what was used to replace the triangular wire up until what MNR and Amtrak are currently using.  I believe Type 3 wire was also used on the Connecting RR suspended from PRR type bridges.

Unless you are up from modeling the triangular wire your only options are the Type 1 or Type 3 from Don (Model Memories).

These images show the Type 3 wire in various uses suspended from bridges and towers:

pcNYwilhelm.jpg

Westchester Yard.jpg P5aClevelandUnionterminal2CC2BoxxfertoNYCTerminal5_zps1d5b639a.jpg

5946_1208321602.jpg Stamford.jpg 999.jpg
019.jpg
This is below what the NHRHTA modeled on their large scale Stamford Club RR at this particular location:  Nice work!
IMG_0973.jpg
My initial attempt at HO scale triangular below:  I'll be using mostly Type 1 & Type 3 (from bridges).  Rick has already pointed out my triangle spacing to is large but it matches Model Memories Type 3 spacing.  I may fill in between, if I live long enough.  :)

IMG_2164.JPG IMG_1930.JPG
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