DL-701 DERS-5 fuel/water tanks

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DL-701 DERS-5 fuel/water tanks

Peter R Ness
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Joined: December 17th, 2005, 1:21 am

January 15th, 2009, 12:03 pm #1

First of all, from now on I will only call them fuel tanks. I know that originally they were split fuel and water tanks that eventually failed, etc. so,
please no need to post "reminders" about this and everyone forgive my short-hand use of "fuel tanks", OK?




Now, so far I have four units 1400, 1404, 1409 and 1410 (or is it 12? my refs are at home) that have what I am calling a "different" fuel tank - and
they were NOT delivered with this tank. the "different" tank has no vertical housings or shrouds on the ends that obscure the fill pipes and act as
"bookends" to the air tank. They also have six equally spaced wash-out or clean-out plugs along the side and are basically flat across the top
surface.




The other tank I refer to as the "Standard" tank. There are 1956 photos of both 1400 and 1404 that show these units originally equipped with this
style tank. In this case the ends of the tanks have the vertical shrouds or housings that obscure the fill pipes and "bookend" the air tank and
there are four unequally-spaced wash-out or clean-out plugs along the sides.




My last observation before opening this up for discussion is that the "different" tanks seem to have a more defined split in photographs than the
standard tanks.




So; here are my questions that I am confident can be answered...remember, I already know the tanks were originally split water and fuel tanks, and that
ain't one of the questions...




1. The things I'm calling wash-out or clean-out plugs - what are they really called and if they're not for washout or clean out, what are they for?


2. Does anyone KNOW (meaning not speculating, not opining) what is the reason for the fuel tank change?


3. Is the "different" tank still split fuel and water? two separate tanks? both for fuel?


4. What are the circular depressions on the vertical shroud/housing ends of the "standard" tanks? To me, they look like they might be involved with
fastening these end pieces onto the tank...or maybe a big honkin' freeze plug like on engine blocks...what are they really????


5. Can anyone tell me about fuel and water gages mounted on the tanks...were they the same only labeled differently?


6. It looks like the fills for each tank were slightly different in photos...different height (length) or different caps...what were the actual differences up
close and personal.




*Answers that begin 'I think' (unless the response is; I think you are crazy, Peter) get zero points


*Answers that begin 'I remember' get standard points


*Answers that begin 'In 195x, units 14xx aned 140x were shopped at Y and xxx gallon tanks were removed and replaced with tank type Z with yyy gallons
capacity, etc. etc., get maximum points




Unfortunately, the only things points get you is my eternal gratitude for continuing to develop my education and knowledge...means a lot to me.




BTW, since we know there were two different types of fuel tanks, we need to be humble and cease stating that a certain Atlas tank is "more correct"
for a New Haven RS-11. We now need to say; "For SOME NH RS-11's an Atlas tank is more correct..." Good things these Alcos were
"standard" units, right?




Thanks in advance,


Peter


- taking the phrase 'Model Railroading is Fun' to new levels of enjoyment...now, where's my razor saw? I need to feel more pain.
Peter R. Ness
Modeling the New Haven in 1959
http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/
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Dave B
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Dave B
Member
Joined: January 13th, 2004, 8:57 pm

January 15th, 2009, 4:56 pm #2

Peter:


I've never noticed the different tanks on the RS-11s. Could you provide some photo references (ie. see picture on page ... of book). After some serious
filing of the Atlas frames I was able to install the "correct ?" proto 2000 (actually RS-18 tanks at the time) onto my Atlas models. Please tell me
this work wasn't for not !!




Dave B.


PS are you planning on traveling out to the ARS show ?
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Peter R Ness
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Joined: December 17th, 2005, 1:21 am

January 15th, 2009, 7:28 pm #3

Hi Dave,




Easy question first - Unfortunately I cannot make Springfield this year as I have business travel that conflicts. I will be at the NMRA National at Hartford
in July.




Photo references - I'm still going through mine. To restate my findings so far with my references in front of me, it is 1410 (not 1412) that joins 1400,
1404 and 1409. Basically, look through anything you have and compare the tanks on these four units to any other. The example I have next to the keyboard is
the centerspread photo from Shoreliner Vol 13 Issue 4 1982 with 1406 in the lead ahead of 1400. You cannot clearly see the difference in cleanout plugs but
you can definitely see the difference at the ends of the tanks between the two units.




I would never tell you your work was for naught, particularly if you're happy with the result, and of course, the degree of accuracy depends on the
roadnumber of the unit. I used to recommend working on a model from a photo reference. Over time I've changed my tune to recommending photo
references...and having photos of both sides of the unit is highly recmommended.




I'm kinda thinking this project may be my clinic for Reunion '09. There was a model contest winner a couple years back who did an excellent set of
RS-11's...but I can not recall who or which units or if based on Atlas or LLP1K let alone if the tanks were correct. They were still beautiful models!




If it helps any, I am using LLP1K models (4) and for the "standard" tank units I will keep the tanks that come on the model but revise the detail on
them. Modifying the tank on my 1404 will be enough for me, thank you.




Regards,


Peter
Peter R. Ness
Modeling the New Haven in 1959
http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/
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Peter R Ness
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Joined: December 17th, 2005, 1:21 am

January 16th, 2009, 10:40 pm #4

OK, the responses are not exactly overwhelming, so here's some photos to help jog some memories...again, thanks for any and all info...Here we go:




Photo 1 is taken in 1957 about a year after delivery and features units 1412, 1409 and 1404. In this photo 1404 and 1409 still retain their original tanks as
shown by the horizontal "bookends" on either side of the air reservoir and the four cleanout plugs. Unit 1412 kept the same tank for its'
service life on the New Haven, as far as my photo references show.





Photo 2 is from 1959 and DERS-5 1400 is sporting a different style tank - flat top, no "bookends", and six cleanout plugs. In most photos of this
type of tank it certainly appears there are two separate tanks to my eyes.





Photo 3 is DERS-5 1404. A year older now in 1958 it's sporting a new tank like 1400.





Photo 4 is from 1968 showing the rear of the replacement tank on DERS-5 1410.





Photo 5, from 1966 shows DERS-5's 1400 and 1406. This photo is a good comparison of the notable differences in the two tank designs.







DISCLAIMER: The photos I have of DERS-5 1409 are from published books in my collection so I am not posting those. I'm hoping that on the NHRHTA Forum
it's permissible to publish photos that were published by NHRHTA and are part of my reference collection. I have identified the photographers and sources,
and make no clain to copyright or ownership of these images othert than I paid for them and consider looking for information within a non-profit organization
part of personal use.




OK, please educate me about the fuel tank mystery!




Regards,


Peter
Peter R. Ness
Modeling the New Haven in 1959
http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/
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Peter R Ness
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Joined: December 17th, 2005, 1:21 am

January 23rd, 2009, 7:31 pm #5

bump....
Peter R. Ness
Modeling the New Haven in 1959
http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/
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bxcarmike
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Joined: June 24th, 2004, 4:46 am

January 25th, 2009, 9:12 pm #6

Boy, Peter tough questions with rules too? I lose, I have more questions.


Were those tanks replaced after the units were dropped from passenger service. According to Morning Sun book they didn't stay in duel service long. If you
look at the cleanouts as you call them,(they look to high on tank to clean it), the replacements have six evenly spaced, the originals have five. Check
fallenflags, there;s two good side views. Could they be mounting bolts? Check other RS units, different tanks but visual bolts.


Lastly are you adding the walkway tank on your units? mike h.
Last edited by bxcarmike on January 25th, 2009, 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NHRHTA1
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Joined: April 12th, 2003, 5:17 am

January 25th, 2009, 11:06 pm #7

Mike only the DERS-4 (GP-9) units had the extra tanks added on the deck not these. The reason for the short
service according to Mr. Willis Copeland (Road foreman of Engines) was that the separator baffles leaked water into the fuel oil with the usual drastic
consequences.
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Peter R Ness
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Joined: December 17th, 2005, 1:21 am

January 26th, 2009, 6:10 am #8

Hi Mike H,




Good questions, and the when, why and how and what happened are reasons for my original post.




Just to clarify, the original tanks have four of these bolt/clean-out items on each side - three on the water tank and one on the fuel, the replacement tanks
have six per side, three each, water and fuel. Were they still water and fuel tanks after the replacement? Don't know, but study the posted photos
carefully and you can still see the "WATER" stencil on the side sill of some units. Why leave the water stencil if both tanks are fuel?




To answer your modeling question, it's not a walkway tank, it's a raised walkway over the cab signal box that is mounted underneath. The
"exciter" part of the system is mounted above this section of walkway on the side of the hood, and yes I will model this. Don't forget to
lengthen the window on this side of the cab as well...




Happy modeling,


Peter
Peter R. Ness
Modeling the New Haven in 1959
http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/
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bxcarmike
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Joined: June 24th, 2004, 4:46 am

January 27th, 2009, 1:08 pm #9

My mistake on signal box being covered. Do you have any good side shots of these units?


On fallenflags site, decent b/w semi-side shots show #1411 with original tank. It has (guessing by me here), three bolts/gussets on water tank the big hole
appears to be a sight glass for water tank. There's two on fuel tank, one on tank and one through shroud.


On #1409, circa '62 it has six bolts/gussets on tank.


Now we know through other post, separator baffles failed, that explains why. That would answer question #2.


On all photos I have,(books/websites) the fuel tank is the rear tank on all units. Every unit has a fuel spill on them. Most front half tanks have stencil for
water and most seem clean, even heavily weathered units. So, guessing here they were still split fuel water. As for different fillers, judging by New Havens
finances anything that fits would work. mike horton
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Peter R Ness
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Joined: December 17th, 2005, 1:21 am

January 27th, 2009, 10:40 pm #10

Hi Mike,




Gee...good shots of the sides? I think four of the five I posted here are pretty good - those four photos show both sides of the the tanks on different units.
If you're asking about a good shot meaning just the fuel tank alone in a larger photo, sorry, no. For some reason unknown to me, most photographers of New
Haven equipment when it ran the rails weren't interested in such things (and yes, I am kidding!)




There is an RS-11 at one of the museums (Danbury?) so perhaps someone could obtain photos of the tank(s) on that unit if they are present and not changed from
New Haven days...having modeled from available photos for 30+ years (I've been modeling longer, but didn't have photos then) I find there are usually
photos with sufficient information...it just takes a long time to find them


Regards,


Peter
Peter R. Ness
Modeling the New Haven in 1959
http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/
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