DBrion
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Joined: 1:52 AM - Jun 21, 2006

9:44 PM - Sep 07, 2013 #21

Thanks for sharing your several coal tower drawings showing the integral sand dryers.  Very interesting arrangements.
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Bill Chapin
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Joined: 5:12 AM - Jun 16, 2006

12:38 AM - Sep 09, 2013 #22

I went to my copy of the NHRHTA Mechanical Facilities guide and found two drawings of the Cedar Hill facilities.  The 1940 version shows the LARGE wet sand storage area with a dryer house at the SW end located about midway between the coaling tower and the electric locomotive sanding facility.  I think it's fair to deduce that all the sand came through this facility, was dried and sent pnuematicly to either the coal tower or the electric sanding facility.  The later plan shows the diesel sanding facility just to the SE of the storage and dryer house, making the run with pnuematic piping all the shorter, so from that point of view the location of the diesel facility was quite convenient.  Another thing to consider with the coaling tower was that only loads of coal would have to have been dealt with at the tower rather that having to jockey around the ocassional load of sand around a steady stream of coal hoppers.  Also, the NH could have put a dryer in the coal tower, but they would have needed another dryer for the electrics.  The N&W didn't have this concern.
Bill
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NH746EJO
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Joined: 7:18 PM - Nov 24, 2007

10:29 AM - Sep 09, 2013 #23

Bill -- you should address two points I've made. 1) If the New Haven was going to use the electric sand facility, why didn't they place the steam loco sanding boxes close to the sand dryer building ?  That is what they did in Providence or Boston.  That is what they did when the diesels arrived.  That would be the most obvious, simplest and cheapest way to go.    2) Why take a chance with using compressed air to blow sand 600 feet in a horizontal underground pipe and then blow it up another 150 feet or so.  Is that asking for trouble ?  Isn't that an an expense or complication easily avoided by using the true and tried method used, for example, in Providence. 
TO REPEAT -  I have no hard evidence to support either possibility but I would like to see some technical evidence come forth.   DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A SUCCESSFUL SYSTEM WHERE SAND WAS BLOWN 600 FEET UNDERGROUND AT A STEAM FACILITY ?  We certainly know the use of internal drying and storage systems were common in coaling towers.  WHY DEDUCE THAT THE NEW HAVEN USED AN UNUSUAL SYSTEM - MAYBE EVEN UNIQUE ? 
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NH746EJO
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Joined: 7:18 PM - Nov 24, 2007

11:19 AM - Sep 09, 2013 #24

For those who think the New Haven used the existing electric motor sand facility for steam locomotives when the concrete Cedar Hill coal tower was built rather than an internal system within the coal tower, I would like to know why the New Haven didn't do what they did at Providence.  Why blow sand several hundred feet underground ?  WHY DO A SIMPLE JOB THE HARD WAY ? 
THE FIRST PROVIDENCE PHOTO SHOWS (left to right) THE WET SAND BIN, DRYING BUILDING, ELEVATED SAND DELIVERY PIPE AND TWO DRY SAND DELIVERY BOXES.THE SECOND PHOTO FROM THE TURTABLE SHOWS THE COAL TOWER THAT WAS BUILT AROUND THE SAME TIME AS THE CEDAR HILL PLANT (I don't know the exact date).  THE PHOTO ALSO SHOWS THE SAND FACILITY WHICH WAS RETAINED WHEN A NEW COALING PLANT WAS BUILT.  NOTE THAT THE NEW HAVEN DIDN'T BLOW SAND UNDERGROUND TO THE NEW CONCRETE TOWER.  WHY ?  PROBABLY BECAUSE IT WAS EASIER, MORE RELIABLE AND CHEAPER TO RUN A PIPE A SHORTER DISTANCE JUST AS THEY DID MUCH LATER FOR DIESELS AT CEDAR HILL.

FOR MORE PHOTOS AT CHARLES STREET PLEASE GO TO MY WEBSITE -http://sites.google.com/site/roundhousesinprovidenceri
Last edited by NH746EJO on 11:24 AM - Sep 09, 2013, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Chapin
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Joined: 5:12 AM - Jun 16, 2006

12:11 AM - Sep 21, 2013 #25

Ed,At Providence, the only game in town was steam when they built the engine facilities there, so all the effort could be kept in the vicinity of the coaling tower.  If when the diesels showed up they could make their facilities close to those of steam, great.  At Cedar Hill there were separate steam and electric service facilities built concurrently.  They built a large sand handling facility half way between the two.  I would think this would be the only place sand would be delivered to.  It's always possible they may have come up with some Rube Goldberg system for getting the sand for the central facility to the two service facilities, but I think a pnuematic system would have been in keeping with the modern yard of the mid-1920's.  Keep in mind that when moving sand pnuematically there is a lot of air and a little fluidized sand in cross-section.  And also that when an amount of sand is sent the entire amount goes in a single extended blast which would not end until virtually all the sand had exited the pnuematic pipe system, keeping the pipes open and clear for the next blast.  The length of the run really does not matter so long as the minimum air flow could be maintained to transport and exhaust all the sand from the system.  The air would never be cut while sand was still in the pipes, otherwise they run the risk of clogging.  There would also have to be a method to meter both the air and sand flow into the system.  I don't know if such a system would be underground or aerial, but I would think aerial would be easier to build and maintain.
Bill
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NH746EJO
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Joined: 7:18 PM - Nov 24, 2007

11:41 AM - Sep 21, 2013 #26

Bill,     I agree with you that it is possible to move the sand from the remote drying room by compressed air but my only question is -- is it probable ?  As you point out it would be better if the sand pipe was above ground but I have never seen a picture which shows a sand pipe above ground at Cedar Hill -- the pipe was clearly elevated at Providence.  Another thing that makes me wonder is why the sand delivery pipes on the Cedar Hill coaling tower are on the side farthest from the electric/diesel sand drying building ?  If they were going to move sand from the remote drying building wouldn't they have placed the sand delivery pipes on the side of the tower closest to the sand drying location ?   Of course, the answer may be that they were placed that way because steam engines mainly arrived at the coaling tower tender first and their sand domes were on the far side of the tower.  Hope we find some definite evidence.                             Ed
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namenta
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namenta
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Joined: 2:01 PM - Oct 07, 2018

2:06 PM - Oct 07, 2018 #27

I know this post is years old but i was hoping I could get some info on how the coal was put into the tower. I am going to scratch build an N Scale model of the Cedar Hill tower and none of the pics on google seem to be clear on how it was moved up into the tower. Thanks guys!
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rsullivan
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Joined: 3:36 PM - Dec 14, 2016

6:14 PM - Oct 07, 2018 #28

Mr. Namenta. Mr. Bert Sacco's article titled "Modeling the New Haven Railroad Coaling Station at Cedar Hill" in The SpeedWitch, vol 1, iss 2, has 14 beautiful color pictures, one diagram, and eight pages of pictures and text covering how to construct it. Myself, when I go to finish my Cedar Hill Coaling Station I will use two Tichy's parts for the coal loader. Hope this helps some. 
Richard #3967
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dpeters04
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Joined: 12:21 AM - Nov 18, 2003

10:17 AM - Oct 12, 2018 #29

I do not see any mention of the coal bridge at New Haven station and the docks it was  out over the tracks at NH station. in my last years at NH they still made moves at the long gone Coal Bridge about where the wheel truing shop is now
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