Atlas HW Paired Window New Haven Coach

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nhhe52
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Joined: March 26th, 2004, 12:19 am

May 16th, 2018, 11:09 am #11

Peter R Ness wrote: W-220 was assigned as a Wreck Train Diner.  The side shown in the photo doesn't show any exhaust stacks for cooking equipment, so unless there was a stove on the other side it was probably bagged lunch special or lunch pail surprise service only.  The Atlas car may be a "good enough" model for those interested in a smattering of Non-Revenue Equipment, but a Walthers 28-1 Parlor may be a better starting point fdor those interested in a more accurate model. It has the correct 9 paired windows (at least for the side in the photo) and is based on Pullman Plan 3416, which some of the New Haven Parlors were.  I do not have a record of which parlor W-220 was converted from.
Regards,
Peter
It would be interesting to know which original parlor W-220 was rebuilt from.  According the the John S. Horvath compilation, NH parlors #2016 to #2027 where made in the 3416 Pullman Plan and all where originally named.   All these parlors were rebuilt as 88-seat coaches, names dropped and renumbered, in 1949.  Regardless, there is no information in that compilation regarding W-220 or what parlor it was original configured.  So it may not have been a 28C-DR, Plan 3416 car to begin with.

The Walthers Pullman 28-1 parlor models have one side with the original clerestory roof and the other side built-out for air conditioning.  Not sure if W-220 was built that way.  Perhaps someone has an image of the other side.

Ed
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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

May 16th, 2018, 1:14 pm #12

Mr. Ed(nhhe52). I just went through the NHRTI and NHRHTA data sheets and here is all I could locate on the W-220. There were 16 28 seat - DR Rm parlor cars built to Pullman Plan #3416, Lot #4864 according to Standing Data NHRTI 5.25.2 (1971). It also listed the names for all 16 cars as Abigail, Amanda, Arabella, Bertha, Celeste, Cornelia, Deborah, Desiree, Edith, Eunice, Evangeline, NYC late NH - Gertrude, Hortense, Maude, Nancy, Nina. (Note: name discrepancies with other Standing Data Sheets.) 
Standing Data NHRTI 5.109 (1974, 1993) shows 2016 - 2028 were AAR classified as PC, were parlors built by Pullman 1924-25, and were 28 seat - 1 DR.
Standing Data NHRHTA 5.129 (1974, 1993) shows the following
NH #      Pullman Name      Built     Plan    Lot     Accommodations & Notes                                                            Condemned
2016      Desiree ex-NYC    1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 619, 12/49                         5/62
2017d    Abigail ex-NYC      1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 629, 9/49                          3/60
2018d    Amanda ex-NYC    1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 631, 9/49                          3/60
2019      Amelia ex-PRR      1924    3416   4801  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 627, 8/49                          3/60
2020d    Arabella ex-NYC    1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 637, 12/49                        3/60
2021d    Celeste ex-NYC     1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 635, 11/49                        3/60
2022e    Gertrude ex-LV      1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 633, 10/49                        3/60
2023e    Hortense ex-LV      1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 628, 8/49                          3/60
2024      Larkspur                 1924    3416   4761  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 636, 11/49                        3/60
2025e    Maude ex-LV          1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 634, 10/49                        3/60
2026e    Nancy ex-LV           1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 630, 9/49                          3/60
2027e    Nina ex-LV              1925    3416   4864  28 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 632, 10/49                        3/60
2028f     Centerville               1924    3418   4783  30 chairs-D.R. Conv. 88 seat Coach 638, 12/49                        3/60
     d - 1925 Empire State Express    e - Lehigh Valley - Black Diamond       f - Ex-PRR Richard H. Lee, changed 9/30
(Note: missing Bertha, Deborah, Edith, and Eunice, but adds Centerville as 2028.)
Standing Data NHRTI 5.142 to 5.148 (1974, 1993) is the alphabetical listing of the cars by name and car numbers. Here are the names from both Standing Data NHRTI 5.25.2 and Standing Data NHRHTA 5.129:  Abigail - 2017/629, Amanda - 2018/631, Amelia - 2019/627, Arabella - 2020/637, Bertha - not listed, Celeste 2021/635, Centerville - 2028/638 (ex-Richard H. Lee - PRR), Cornelia - not listed, Deborah - not listed, Desiree - 2016/619, Edith - not listed, Eunice- Not listed, Evangeline - not listed, Gertrude - 2022/633, Hortense - 6023/628, Larkspur - 2024/636, Maude - 2025/634, Nancy - 2026/630, and Nina - 2027/632. It further lists the following names for cars in the 2016 - 2028 series: Delhi - 2018*, Kasota - 2017*, Nercha - 2016*, Pyrrhus - 2024*, Quieto - 2022*, Quintus - 2028*, Quivette - 2027*, Restoria - 2025*, Sedan - 2021*, Truxillo - 2020*, and Waldeck - 2019*. All of these cars were pre-1913 cars replaced by the 1924-25 parlor cars from Pullman and the numbers were reused. I listed them in case someone else saw the names with the numbers elsewhere. Note: W-220 was not found anywhere on this data sheet.
Standing Data NHRTI 7.10 (1972) is the Non-Revenue Rolling Stock of the NYNH&H Railroad.shows W-220 Wreck Train Diner, Parlor Car, Maybrook. It does not list the old number, date built, or renumber date.
Mr. Wayne Drummond's article "Butterflies to Caterpillars" in Shoreliner, vol. 21, iss. 3, has a chart on page 15. It shows that 12 parlor cars from Pullman Plan #3416 were converted to coaches. They were:
                                                                         Pullman Lease                                    Conv.           Cond.
Plan   Parlor#    Coach#       Names             In        Out     In  Out            Seats          Date            Date
3416  2016        619             Desiree             2/46   1/48                           88 seats      12/49          5/62
3416  2019        627             Amelia              2/46   1/48                           88 seats       8/49            3/60
3416  2023        628             Hortense          2/46   1/48                           88 seats       8/49            3/60
3416  2017        629             Abigail              2/46   1/48                           88 seats       9/49            3/60
3416  2026        630             Nancy              2/46   1/48                           88 seats       9/49            3/60
3416  2018        631             Amanda           2/46   9/48                           88 seats       9/49            3/60
3416  2027        632             Nina                 2/46   9/48                           88 seats       10/49          3/60
3416  2022        633             Gertrude          2/46   1/48                           88 seats       10/49           3/60
3416  2025        634             Maude              2/46   9/48                           88 seats       10/49           3/60
3416  2021        635             Celeste             2/46   9/48                           88 seats       11/49           3/60
3416  2024        636             Larkspur           2/46   9/48                           88 seats       11/49           3/60
3416  2020        637             Arabella            2/46   1/48                           88 seats       12/49           3/60
There was no mention of which cars were converted to work service after condemnation in the article.
     My conclusions are: Standing Data NHRTI 5.25.2 (1971) mistakenly listed that there were 16 parlor cars in this class when there were only 12 built to Pullman Plan 3416. Standing Data NHRTI 5.109 mistakenly listed the parlor car numbers for the 28-seat - 1 DR parlor cars as 2016 - 2028. That number series would equal 13 parlor cars, and as can be seen on other data sheets and Mr. Drummond's chart palor car 2028 is both a different Pullman Plan number and had 30-seats - 1 DR. Standing Data NHRTI 5.142 to 5.148 lists all 12 Pullman Plan 3416 parlor cars, but unlike other parlor/sleeper/dining cars converted to work service the W-220 is not listed at all. So, W-220 was converted after March 1960, and for some reason its origins are not recorded in any references I have access to. Another words, it is still a mystery car.
Richard (short form) #3967
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nhhe52
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Joined: March 26th, 2004, 12:19 am

May 16th, 2018, 4:15 pm #13

Thanks Richard:

The reference by Peter to the 28-1 Pullman parlor configuration was provided as a prototypical window arrangement for kit-bashing W-220 as opposed to the window arrangement of the non-prototypical Atlas RTR model of W-220.   I started looking at the 28-1 cars as perhaps by coincidence W-220 was actually a 28-1 parlor.  Perhaps it was but so far that hasn't been determined.

I have found from additional information compiled by James VanBokken that:

W-210 was converted from Pullman Parlor #2070, 24C Dr Lounge, Auburn, Plan #3917C in April 1964.
W-322 was converted from Pullman Parlor #2056, 36C, Narrows Light, Plan 3916B first in Aug. 1953 to a diner, then condemned April 1965 before converted to MOW service in Sep. 1968.

But again nothing regarding the origins of W-220.

Ed
Last edited by nhhe52 on May 17th, 2018, 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

May 16th, 2018, 8:05 pm #14

Mr. Ed(nhhe52) Standing Data NHRHTA 5.128 to 5.141 (1974, 1993) shows the following parlor, sleeper & dining cars were converted to work service cars.
 NH #      Pullman Name      Built     Plan    Lot     Accommodations & Notes                                                            Condemned
2036       North Easton         1927    3917   6078  32 chairs-D.R. Conv. 71 seat coach 651, 1/54-became W-325
2043a     Massachusetts Bay1929   3917  6318   32 chairs-D.R. Conv. to Tavern Car #2043, 6/53; to W-223
2047       Westport                1927    3917   6078  32 chairs-D.R. Conv. 66 seat Club Car #5105, 11/48; to 
                                                                              78 Seat Smoker #6845, 4/55; to W-943                                             3/61
2055       Nantucket Light      1929    3916   6319 36 chairs Conv. 74 seat Coach 656, 3/54; to W-326                                                               
2057       Navesink Light        1929    3916   6319 36 chairs Conv. 74 seat Coach 649, 12/53; to W-324
2068a     Acushnet                 1927    3917   6078 32 chair-1 D.R. Parlor Conv, to 71 seat Coach 654, 3/54; to W-320  2/64
2069ab   Ansonia                   1927    3917   6078 32 chair-1 D.R. Parlor; to W-218                                                        5/62
2070ac   Plymouth                 1927    3917   4803 32 chair-1 D.R. Parlor; to W-210                                                        2/61
2071ac   Provincetown          1927    3917   4803 32 chair-1 D.R. Parlor; to W-217                                                        5/62
2074d     Boston Light           1929    3916   6319 36 chairs Conv. 69 seat Coach 640, 9/52; to W-319                           3/62   
2075d     Minot Light              1929    3916   6319 36 chairs Conv. 69 seat Coach 641, 10/52; to W-318                         4/63
   a - Listed as 24 Seats-1 D.R.-10 Lounge Seats in 1950 Offical Register, b - Assigned to Owl, c -Assigned to 1924 Merchants Limited,
   d - Assigned to 1930 Merchants Limited. Listed as 28 Seat Parlor-10 Lounge Seats in 1950 Official Register.
  NH                                                Year
Number NH Name    Builder          Built              Accommodations & Notes 
2303      Bronx           NHRR          1903             36 seats. Became W-125 in 1935.
2304                          Pullman        1903             36 seats. Became W-126 in 1935.
2306                          Wason          1904             30 seats. Became W-127 in 1935.
2312a                        Wason          1904             22 seats. Became W-153 9/27/40 for Maybrook wrecker.
2313      Lenox          Pullman        1904             Lot 3117. 36 seats. Became W-129 in 1935.
2316                          Pullman        1907             36 seats. Became W-130 in 1935.
2317                          Pullman        1907             36 seats. Became W-131 in 1935.
2318                          Pullman        1907             36 seats. Became W-128 in 1935.
5225                          Pullman         1913            36 seats, Steel Framed, Wood Interior, Steel Sheathed Exterior, Arched windows, door side
                                                                            only. 1939 NH rebuilt. Became W-144.
5226                          Pullman         1913            36 seats, Steel Framed, Wood Interior, Steel Sheathed Exterior, Arched windows, door side
                                                                            only. 1939 NH rebuilt. Became W-143.
5105                          Pullman         1927            66 seats 11/48, ex-2047 Westport. Converted 4/55 to 78 seat Smoker #6845. 12/65 became
                                                                             W-943.
5199                   Osgood-Bradley   1914            49 seats, Converted to Lunch counter car 1934. Renumbered 1/43 ex-6710. 11/46 became
                                                                             W-147.
    a - The 1930 Listing of passenger cars shows these cars to have observation end.
       There seems to be two W-210s. The one you noted and the one in the standing data sheets. I remember comments that the standing data sheets have errors. So, I won't say that the W-210 was the Plymouth first or not. Again, no W-220.
Richard (short form) #3967
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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

May 17th, 2018, 5:04 am #15

     Mr. Ed(nhhe52) After comparing both sides of Coach 633, former 28-seat - 1 D.R. parlor car, Pullman Plan 3416, Gertrude, found on pages 20 and 21 of Mr. Wayne Drummond's article "Butterlies to Caterpillars" in Shoreliner, vol 21, iss. 3, I am very sure that W-220 was not converted from one of the Pullman Plan 3416 parlor cars. The non-air conditioned side has ten-paired windows without the one single salon window. However, the paired window placement is different from that on the Atlas model. The air conditioned side has nine-paired windows and two single salon windows at each end. 
     The picture of the actual W-220 appears to match the window placement on the non-air conditioned side of the "Acushnet" built to Pullman Plan 3917A, Lot 6078, on page 10. The W-220 is missing the water tank on this side. Does that mean the New Haven removed the air conditioning from the original parlor car when converted to a work service car?
     Page 10 also has a picture of the air conditioned side of the "Niantic Bay" built to Pullman Plan 3917B, Lot 6318, which has the same window placement as the non-air conditioned side of the "Acushnet". Both were 32-seat - 1 D.R. parlor cars.
     If I was going to modify a car into the W-220, I would use the New England Rail Service conversion parts as Mr. Statkowski mentioned earlier. I find them easy to use and highly detailed. However, I am trying to end my modeling period at 1959 and the W-220 was probably still in commuter coach service.
Richard (short form) #3967
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nhhe52
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Joined: March 26th, 2004, 12:19 am

May 17th, 2018, 9:44 am #16

The car number is fuzzy but it looks like a parlor window configuration?
2011091720350916226.jpg
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rsullivan
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Joined: December 14th, 2016, 3:36 pm

May 17th, 2018, 12:58 pm #17

Mr. Ed(nhhe52) That side matches the view of the air conditioned side of "Niantic Bay" on page 10 of Shoreliner, vol. 21, iss. 3. So, I agree with you about it being a parlor car originally, and highly suspect it was one of the 3917 Pullman Plan series cars.
Richard (short form) #3967
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