What's The Consequence Of What You Teach?

What's The Consequence Of What You Teach?

Joined: February 28th, 2004, 1:04 am

May 6th, 2010, 10:55 pm #1

Or is there is no consequence?

I am for students building confidence....in the beginning.....but there comes a time when they need to face the ugly fact that if they fail to defend themselves there is consequences.......

A confident woman in rape prevention class is a great thing, but what happens if they fail to pull off the technique for real when the time comes??????

A bullied youth learning to defend himself is a good thing, but what if he gets attacked by an adult??????

Telling someone that they "might get hit" if they make a mistake, is an opened ended statement, that has been taught too much in my opinion.......

The truth is:

Do you want your eyes gouged out.......

Do you want to be tortured........

Do you want to be held captive for 18 years.......

Do you want your intestines to come out........

The world is a scary place and needs to be adressed....that's the reality in reality training, not just full contact!!!!!

There is a big difference in facing a pissed of accountant vs. a serial killer.........what's the consequence if you fail in that situation?

When I was 9 a friend of mine disappeared and as usual during the time frame of the late 60's early 70's, the police listed him as a run away.......

I was in judo/ jiu jitsu at the time and was pretty good at it for my age. My Father had learned it in the military and he realized that defending myself against someone my own age was doable, but was concerned about me defending against an adult.

Against my Mothers wishes he bought me a Buck Knife folder. Instead of being content to just wear it and have it with me, He showed me how to use it...... something he had experience doing during his time in the Pacific during WWII. We practiced on an old Leather sofa, something he said felt real to him.........

He taught me where, when and how to use it and what would happen to me if I misused it, bullied anyone with it....what the consequence would be if I chose to use it.....he had perspective!!!!!

Walking home from baseball practice one day, I was grabbed by an adult male who attempted to throw me into a van. I did everything I could do to break free and attempted a throw. He placed me in a choke hold and I was close to going out, he countered everything I tried on him......he knew what I knew.

I had my steel baseball cleats on and was scraping his shin and stomping his foot and created enough of an opening that I was able to turn into him, deployed the Buck Knife and without hesitation stabbed him......

I got loose and ran into the woods. I was not sure if he was following me so I kept doubling back, hiding and so on. It took me over 3 hours to get home when it normaly took 20 minutes.

I was terrified.....I thought he would come after me and stab me for stabbing him or that the Police might arrest me.......Nothing compared to what he was capable of doing.

The Police never found him and the thought that he might try again was too much to deal with. Even now I have trouble talking about this, but not knowing the outcome or thoughts of retaliation took it's toll on me. There was no therapy, no label, no drugs to take, just man up and deal with it........too much to ask of anyone especially a kid.

A few years later a man named Dean Corll was on the news and I recognized him as the man who tried to grab me. Even though I told the Police they never were able to determine if it was him or not, or did not want to admit it was him because of the bad light it put on the Police Dept.........he lived less than 5 miles from my home.

My friend that disappeared was one of his victims........He started using another man to bring him his victims. Not sure if I had anything to do with that or not, but while the investigation was going on I was afraid to go outside, or sleep with the lights off and when I did sleep, I had a knife under my pillow.

I still fight him over and over in my mind, thinking how different things would have been... if I had ended him. A lot of guilt on my part for those that were not as fortunate as myself.

What did I learn?

Perspective and consequence......

And sometimes the encounter lasts longer than a few seconds..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll


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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

May 6th, 2010, 11:36 pm #2

I completely agree, as usual. The problem I have found is that many people don't want to wake up to that reality. They want to believe in the magical fantasy of most martial arts training. I have found that as an instructor myself. Most people chase belts and aren't ready for reality. You get people who take a few basic classes and think they are fine.

When I start talking like the way you did in this post (getting the eyes gouged out and such) they don't want to think about it so they make believe it will never happen. That's when I tell them that I can't help those who want to live in fantasyland at a McDojo. Some get it, most don't. They are digging their own graves.

Thanks for posting.

Michael Miller, CKF
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

May 6th, 2010, 11:44 pm #3

Or is there is no consequence?

I am for students building confidence....in the beginning.....but there comes a time when they need to face the ugly fact that if they fail to defend themselves there is consequences.......

A confident woman in rape prevention class is a great thing, but what happens if they fail to pull off the technique for real when the time comes??????

A bullied youth learning to defend himself is a good thing, but what if he gets attacked by an adult??????

Telling someone that they "might get hit" if they make a mistake, is an opened ended statement, that has been taught too much in my opinion.......

The truth is:

Do you want your eyes gouged out.......

Do you want to be tortured........

Do you want to be held captive for 18 years.......

Do you want your intestines to come out........

The world is a scary place and needs to be adressed....that's the reality in reality training, not just full contact!!!!!

There is a big difference in facing a pissed of accountant vs. a serial killer.........what's the consequence if you fail in that situation?

When I was 9 a friend of mine disappeared and as usual during the time frame of the late 60's early 70's, the police listed him as a run away.......

I was in judo/ jiu jitsu at the time and was pretty good at it for my age. My Father had learned it in the military and he realized that defending myself against someone my own age was doable, but was concerned about me defending against an adult.

Against my Mothers wishes he bought me a Buck Knife folder. Instead of being content to just wear it and have it with me, He showed me how to use it...... something he had experience doing during his time in the Pacific during WWII. We practiced on an old Leather sofa, something he said felt real to him.........

He taught me where, when and how to use it and what would happen to me if I misused it, bullied anyone with it....what the consequence would be if I chose to use it.....he had perspective!!!!!

Walking home from baseball practice one day, I was grabbed by an adult male who attempted to throw me into a van. I did everything I could do to break free and attempted a throw. He placed me in a choke hold and I was close to going out, he countered everything I tried on him......he knew what I knew.

I had my steel baseball cleats on and was scraping his shin and stomping his foot and created enough of an opening that I was able to turn into him, deployed the Buck Knife and without hesitation stabbed him......

I got loose and ran into the woods. I was not sure if he was following me so I kept doubling back, hiding and so on. It took me over 3 hours to get home when it normaly took 20 minutes.

I was terrified.....I thought he would come after me and stab me for stabbing him or that the Police might arrest me.......Nothing compared to what he was capable of doing.

The Police never found him and the thought that he might try again was too much to deal with. Even now I have trouble talking about this, but not knowing the outcome or thoughts of retaliation took it's toll on me. There was no therapy, no label, no drugs to take, just man up and deal with it........too much to ask of anyone especially a kid.

A few years later a man named Dean Corll was on the news and I recognized him as the man who tried to grab me. Even though I told the Police they never were able to determine if it was him or not, or did not want to admit it was him because of the bad light it put on the Police Dept.........he lived less than 5 miles from my home.

My friend that disappeared was one of his victims........He started using another man to bring him his victims. Not sure if I had anything to do with that or not, but while the investigation was going on I was afraid to go outside, or sleep with the lights off and when I did sleep, I had a knife under my pillow.

I still fight him over and over in my mind, thinking how different things would have been... if I had ended him. A lot of guilt on my part for those that were not as fortunate as myself.

What did I learn?

Perspective and consequence......

And sometimes the encounter lasts longer than a few seconds..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll

filled with Tales of Violence...


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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

May 7th, 2010, 12:09 am #4

I completely agree, as usual. The problem I have found is that many people don't want to wake up to that reality. They want to believe in the magical fantasy of most martial arts training. I have found that as an instructor myself. Most people chase belts and aren't ready for reality. You get people who take a few basic classes and think they are fine.

When I start talking like the way you did in this post (getting the eyes gouged out and such) they don't want to think about it so they make believe it will never happen. That's when I tell them that I can't help those who want to live in fantasyland at a McDojo. Some get it, most don't. They are digging their own graves.

Thanks for posting.

Michael Miller, CKF
I was training at this most excellent school. The school produced many excellent students and very tough fighters. There was this guy named Louie. Louie Boy was a "belt chaser". Well finally he got his black belt.

There was this other guy named John. Now John was a dedicated student who was not very bright. He was obsessive about sparring, techniques and if you came by the school at 10 PM on a Friday he was doing his forms over and over and over. He had a key... He did not care in the least about belts..He was a brown belt at that time..

Well it happened that Louie was allowed to teach a class one day and John was in his class. Well Louie was strutting up and down in front of the class basically like an as**ol* yelling at the students indulging in his new belt. Well John did not do something correctly when Louie yelled instructions and then Louie went ballistic. He paraded up to John and screamed... "Do you see this belt???!!!!" and he lifted up the knot of his brand new black belt and screamed a couple more times.."Do you SEE THIS BELT??!!"

Well all I remember was that Louie got in a stance and went for John. I remember John shrugging his shoulders like "Whatever".. The rest is hazy but I never saw Louie again and John was still found doing his karate into the wee hours of the night..

The names have been changed to protect the innocent... "Do you see this belt??!!" What an idiot!
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

May 7th, 2010, 1:03 am #5

Or is there is no consequence?

I am for students building confidence....in the beginning.....but there comes a time when they need to face the ugly fact that if they fail to defend themselves there is consequences.......

A confident woman in rape prevention class is a great thing, but what happens if they fail to pull off the technique for real when the time comes??????

A bullied youth learning to defend himself is a good thing, but what if he gets attacked by an adult??????

Telling someone that they "might get hit" if they make a mistake, is an opened ended statement, that has been taught too much in my opinion.......

The truth is:

Do you want your eyes gouged out.......

Do you want to be tortured........

Do you want to be held captive for 18 years.......

Do you want your intestines to come out........

The world is a scary place and needs to be adressed....that's the reality in reality training, not just full contact!!!!!

There is a big difference in facing a pissed of accountant vs. a serial killer.........what's the consequence if you fail in that situation?

When I was 9 a friend of mine disappeared and as usual during the time frame of the late 60's early 70's, the police listed him as a run away.......

I was in judo/ jiu jitsu at the time and was pretty good at it for my age. My Father had learned it in the military and he realized that defending myself against someone my own age was doable, but was concerned about me defending against an adult.

Against my Mothers wishes he bought me a Buck Knife folder. Instead of being content to just wear it and have it with me, He showed me how to use it...... something he had experience doing during his time in the Pacific during WWII. We practiced on an old Leather sofa, something he said felt real to him.........

He taught me where, when and how to use it and what would happen to me if I misused it, bullied anyone with it....what the consequence would be if I chose to use it.....he had perspective!!!!!

Walking home from baseball practice one day, I was grabbed by an adult male who attempted to throw me into a van. I did everything I could do to break free and attempted a throw. He placed me in a choke hold and I was close to going out, he countered everything I tried on him......he knew what I knew.

I had my steel baseball cleats on and was scraping his shin and stomping his foot and created enough of an opening that I was able to turn into him, deployed the Buck Knife and without hesitation stabbed him......

I got loose and ran into the woods. I was not sure if he was following me so I kept doubling back, hiding and so on. It took me over 3 hours to get home when it normaly took 20 minutes.

I was terrified.....I thought he would come after me and stab me for stabbing him or that the Police might arrest me.......Nothing compared to what he was capable of doing.

The Police never found him and the thought that he might try again was too much to deal with. Even now I have trouble talking about this, but not knowing the outcome or thoughts of retaliation took it's toll on me. There was no therapy, no label, no drugs to take, just man up and deal with it........too much to ask of anyone especially a kid.

A few years later a man named Dean Corll was on the news and I recognized him as the man who tried to grab me. Even though I told the Police they never were able to determine if it was him or not, or did not want to admit it was him because of the bad light it put on the Police Dept.........he lived less than 5 miles from my home.

My friend that disappeared was one of his victims........He started using another man to bring him his victims. Not sure if I had anything to do with that or not, but while the investigation was going on I was afraid to go outside, or sleep with the lights off and when I did sleep, I had a knife under my pillow.

I still fight him over and over in my mind, thinking how different things would have been... if I had ended him. A lot of guilt on my part for those that were not as fortunate as myself.

What did I learn?

Perspective and consequence......

And sometimes the encounter lasts longer than a few seconds..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bonin

Later dated his sister. The rest of the family siblings and his mother never recovered from the nature of the murder.

Train for extremes, and prepare your students for extremes. Not every assailant is out to kill you, but not every assailant is out for a bar-room brawl alone, either.

D.
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

May 7th, 2010, 2:09 am #6

an electric chair people are going to murder people to get in it. If you build a gay bar people are going to turn....

Well I think you get the picture...
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Joined: August 8th, 2005, 12:08 am

May 7th, 2010, 2:28 am #7

Or is there is no consequence?

I am for students building confidence....in the beginning.....but there comes a time when they need to face the ugly fact that if they fail to defend themselves there is consequences.......

A confident woman in rape prevention class is a great thing, but what happens if they fail to pull off the technique for real when the time comes??????

A bullied youth learning to defend himself is a good thing, but what if he gets attacked by an adult??????

Telling someone that they "might get hit" if they make a mistake, is an opened ended statement, that has been taught too much in my opinion.......

The truth is:

Do you want your eyes gouged out.......

Do you want to be tortured........

Do you want to be held captive for 18 years.......

Do you want your intestines to come out........

The world is a scary place and needs to be adressed....that's the reality in reality training, not just full contact!!!!!

There is a big difference in facing a pissed of accountant vs. a serial killer.........what's the consequence if you fail in that situation?

When I was 9 a friend of mine disappeared and as usual during the time frame of the late 60's early 70's, the police listed him as a run away.......

I was in judo/ jiu jitsu at the time and was pretty good at it for my age. My Father had learned it in the military and he realized that defending myself against someone my own age was doable, but was concerned about me defending against an adult.

Against my Mothers wishes he bought me a Buck Knife folder. Instead of being content to just wear it and have it with me, He showed me how to use it...... something he had experience doing during his time in the Pacific during WWII. We practiced on an old Leather sofa, something he said felt real to him.........

He taught me where, when and how to use it and what would happen to me if I misused it, bullied anyone with it....what the consequence would be if I chose to use it.....he had perspective!!!!!

Walking home from baseball practice one day, I was grabbed by an adult male who attempted to throw me into a van. I did everything I could do to break free and attempted a throw. He placed me in a choke hold and I was close to going out, he countered everything I tried on him......he knew what I knew.

I had my steel baseball cleats on and was scraping his shin and stomping his foot and created enough of an opening that I was able to turn into him, deployed the Buck Knife and without hesitation stabbed him......

I got loose and ran into the woods. I was not sure if he was following me so I kept doubling back, hiding and so on. It took me over 3 hours to get home when it normaly took 20 minutes.

I was terrified.....I thought he would come after me and stab me for stabbing him or that the Police might arrest me.......Nothing compared to what he was capable of doing.

The Police never found him and the thought that he might try again was too much to deal with. Even now I have trouble talking about this, but not knowing the outcome or thoughts of retaliation took it's toll on me. There was no therapy, no label, no drugs to take, just man up and deal with it........too much to ask of anyone especially a kid.

A few years later a man named Dean Corll was on the news and I recognized him as the man who tried to grab me. Even though I told the Police they never were able to determine if it was him or not, or did not want to admit it was him because of the bad light it put on the Police Dept.........he lived less than 5 miles from my home.

My friend that disappeared was one of his victims........He started using another man to bring him his victims. Not sure if I had anything to do with that or not, but while the investigation was going on I was afraid to go outside, or sleep with the lights off and when I did sleep, I had a knife under my pillow.

I still fight him over and over in my mind, thinking how different things would have been... if I had ended him. A lot of guilt on my part for those that were not as fortunate as myself.

What did I learn?

Perspective and consequence......

And sometimes the encounter lasts longer than a few seconds..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll

That was a very good post. Thank you for sharing. I am glad that you are here to tell us the tale.

I try to get students to get over squeamishness and also to understand their best weapons for their age i.e. young kids- parents and their voice.

Salute-

Erik P. AKA
Spaniard
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Joined: February 5th, 2004, 8:46 pm

May 7th, 2010, 3:30 am #8

Or is there is no consequence?

I am for students building confidence....in the beginning.....but there comes a time when they need to face the ugly fact that if they fail to defend themselves there is consequences.......

A confident woman in rape prevention class is a great thing, but what happens if they fail to pull off the technique for real when the time comes??????

A bullied youth learning to defend himself is a good thing, but what if he gets attacked by an adult??????

Telling someone that they "might get hit" if they make a mistake, is an opened ended statement, that has been taught too much in my opinion.......

The truth is:

Do you want your eyes gouged out.......

Do you want to be tortured........

Do you want to be held captive for 18 years.......

Do you want your intestines to come out........

The world is a scary place and needs to be adressed....that's the reality in reality training, not just full contact!!!!!

There is a big difference in facing a pissed of accountant vs. a serial killer.........what's the consequence if you fail in that situation?

When I was 9 a friend of mine disappeared and as usual during the time frame of the late 60's early 70's, the police listed him as a run away.......

I was in judo/ jiu jitsu at the time and was pretty good at it for my age. My Father had learned it in the military and he realized that defending myself against someone my own age was doable, but was concerned about me defending against an adult.

Against my Mothers wishes he bought me a Buck Knife folder. Instead of being content to just wear it and have it with me, He showed me how to use it...... something he had experience doing during his time in the Pacific during WWII. We practiced on an old Leather sofa, something he said felt real to him.........

He taught me where, when and how to use it and what would happen to me if I misused it, bullied anyone with it....what the consequence would be if I chose to use it.....he had perspective!!!!!

Walking home from baseball practice one day, I was grabbed by an adult male who attempted to throw me into a van. I did everything I could do to break free and attempted a throw. He placed me in a choke hold and I was close to going out, he countered everything I tried on him......he knew what I knew.

I had my steel baseball cleats on and was scraping his shin and stomping his foot and created enough of an opening that I was able to turn into him, deployed the Buck Knife and without hesitation stabbed him......

I got loose and ran into the woods. I was not sure if he was following me so I kept doubling back, hiding and so on. It took me over 3 hours to get home when it normaly took 20 minutes.

I was terrified.....I thought he would come after me and stab me for stabbing him or that the Police might arrest me.......Nothing compared to what he was capable of doing.

The Police never found him and the thought that he might try again was too much to deal with. Even now I have trouble talking about this, but not knowing the outcome or thoughts of retaliation took it's toll on me. There was no therapy, no label, no drugs to take, just man up and deal with it........too much to ask of anyone especially a kid.

A few years later a man named Dean Corll was on the news and I recognized him as the man who tried to grab me. Even though I told the Police they never were able to determine if it was him or not, or did not want to admit it was him because of the bad light it put on the Police Dept.........he lived less than 5 miles from my home.

My friend that disappeared was one of his victims........He started using another man to bring him his victims. Not sure if I had anything to do with that or not, but while the investigation was going on I was afraid to go outside, or sleep with the lights off and when I did sleep, I had a knife under my pillow.

I still fight him over and over in my mind, thinking how different things would have been... if I had ended him. A lot of guilt on my part for those that were not as fortunate as myself.

What did I learn?

Perspective and consequence......

And sometimes the encounter lasts longer than a few seconds..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll

No accidents in the universe Richard. You wouldn't be the man that you are if not for the experiences that are uniquely yours and your influence on the people that you have touched would not be as real. Their lives are prepared as a result of your experience as my life and those that I touch are prepared as a result of Mike Picks life. The first lesson I teach brings the reality of that experience to the forefront of my students thoughts. We talk about what happens when it gets truly ugly and what would have to happen for them to survive. It sets the tone for the rest of their training. Thank you for sharing what was obviously a defining moment in your path. Kudos to you for bringing that pain forward.

Much Respect,
Marcus Buonfiglio
Last edited by MarcusBuonfiglio on May 7th, 2010, 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

May 7th, 2010, 3:34 am #9

an electric chair people are going to murder people to get in it. If you build a gay bar people are going to turn....

Well I think you get the picture...
If you build it, they will come...

Kevin Costner comes to mind...Good movie...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_Dreams

Regards,
Gary
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

May 7th, 2010, 3:42 am #10

filled with Tales of Violence...


I could tell you a lot of tales of violence...

It is a situation that is very real in most countries and cities...

Nogales comes to mind more than 100 dead this year alone...Population is around 250,000.

LA has a huge population...Millions and millions...They have around 222 dead so far...

Violence has a way of changing your life, as does kindness...

Regards,
Gary



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