What's in "your" Kenpo?

What's in "your" Kenpo?

Joined: February 1st, 2011, 2:55 am

March 16th, 2011, 2:17 am #1

Hello, today i was reading some topics on various kenpo sites and came across the question "What is kenpo lacking?" Now of course many responded and their answers were ground fighting, jujitsu, weapons ect...

Ok i had to disagree, with the proper understanding and knowledge of kenpo i believe that it is not lacking. it has and is what it was intended to be.

Now i do understand why some may think that, but i find that to be a personal feeling. Some feel that there is not enough indepth material on grappling, jujitsu or weapons. And this is true to a point, tho the main focus is not on the material that some believe is missing, they are touched on in some form or another.

I look at Kenpo the way i look at all other martial arts, they all have a foundation that the art is built on, and if they stray too far from that, It becomes murky and unclear. If one wants to better themselves then they have every right to incorporate other material. On the other hand if one is content with what kenpo has to offer, then kenpo is complete for them.

comments, regards
thank you
Godlikeskill

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Joined: October 21st, 2010, 5:15 pm

March 16th, 2011, 6:03 am #2

Interesting perspective... I believe that all systems have far more in common then most realize and certainly more then most want to admit. But then my world is not black and white!

Good Journey,
Todd Durgan
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Joined: September 18th, 2009, 4:26 pm

March 16th, 2011, 4:19 pm #3

Hello, today i was reading some topics on various kenpo sites and came across the question "What is kenpo lacking?" Now of course many responded and their answers were ground fighting, jujitsu, weapons ect...

Ok i had to disagree, with the proper understanding and knowledge of kenpo i believe that it is not lacking. it has and is what it was intended to be.

Now i do understand why some may think that, but i find that to be a personal feeling. Some feel that there is not enough indepth material on grappling, jujitsu or weapons. And this is true to a point, tho the main focus is not on the material that some believe is missing, they are touched on in some form or another.

I look at Kenpo the way i look at all other martial arts, they all have a foundation that the art is built on, and if they stray too far from that, It becomes murky and unclear. If one wants to better themselves then they have every right to incorporate other material. On the other hand if one is content with what kenpo has to offer, then kenpo is complete for them.

comments, regards
thank you
Godlikeskill
people are built basically the same in any part of the world, the same physics apply. Elbows bend a certain way, knees too, weak spots exist on certain points of the body, natural weapons exist, etc...

A knife or stick in hand, on the ground, etc.

If a person's Kenpo is weak, blame the Kenpoist who fails to study, perfect themselves, apply their Kenpo to all things.



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Joined: April 10th, 2005, 11:41 pm

March 16th, 2011, 9:40 pm #4

"If a person's Kenpo is weak, blame the Kenpoist who fails to study, perfect themselves, apply their Kenpo to all things."

Or you could just blame the crappy teacher. That's my preference.
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Joined: September 18th, 2009, 4:26 pm

March 16th, 2011, 11:05 pm #5

the teacher plays a part as well
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

March 20th, 2011, 2:45 am #6

Hello, today i was reading some topics on various kenpo sites and came across the question "What is kenpo lacking?" Now of course many responded and their answers were ground fighting, jujitsu, weapons ect...

Ok i had to disagree, with the proper understanding and knowledge of kenpo i believe that it is not lacking. it has and is what it was intended to be.

Now i do understand why some may think that, but i find that to be a personal feeling. Some feel that there is not enough indepth material on grappling, jujitsu or weapons. And this is true to a point, tho the main focus is not on the material that some believe is missing, they are touched on in some form or another.

I look at Kenpo the way i look at all other martial arts, they all have a foundation that the art is built on, and if they stray too far from that, It becomes murky and unclear. If one wants to better themselves then they have every right to incorporate other material. On the other hand if one is content with what kenpo has to offer, then kenpo is complete for them.

comments, regards
thank you
Godlikeskill
Kenpo is organized into a curriculum that affords the opportunity to learn its principles. When adhered to the principles enhance the application of Kenpo to effective levels in resolving dangers. Failure to internalize the principles of Kenpo will inevitably lead to a lack of effectiveness in the application of Kenpo. The Kenpo instructor has a responsibility to teach the students the Kenpo curriculum but the student also has a responsibility which is to internalize through dedicated practice the lessons being taught. If the student does not give up but persists in disciplined training with the guidance of a qualified instructor the results will likely be a skilled Kenpoist.


If the student is distracted from consistent training or the instructor is not qualified to teach the lessons in the curriculum it is inevitable that the student will find short comings in their Kenpo. The ego will likely create the illusion in the mind to place the blame on the system, to look over the hills to other martial arts systems or styles and shamelessly proclaim that had I only studied this or that other art I would be so much more capable! The truth is that this type of student will always find whatever method they study lacking because they are unwilling to see the true problem in the mirror. A topic for another day is how can you teach something that you yourself never learned how to do?


Another side of the Kenpo is lacking coin is unrealistic expectations. You can reasonably expect that if you learn Kenpo well you will improve your chances in self-defense but it is unreasonable to expect that learning any martial art will make you invincible in every possible situation. If you wish to compete in a grappling tournament and be victorious over those who specialize in techniques at this range you will have to put in the work of training to be better at grappling under the same rules they follow. Does that mean that Kenpo is lacking or are you trying to eat your lucky charms with a sledge hammer rather than a spoon? If you want to win in the boxing ring guess what you will have to learn? Boxing! If you wish to win at chess guess what moves you will be limited to using? The legal moves for that particular game! (unless no one is looking lol) Now, if you dont want to play games but rather want to survive in self-defense Kenpo is the right tool for the job You will still have to gain skill with that tool which means understanding the right ways to use it and the absolutely wrong ways to use it.

So guess what happens when a student becomes an instructor after training half-assed? They have to fill in the blanks that become apparent when teaching, so they may turn to this or that method but often times the case is either it was a failure to grasp a lesson contained in the system or a failure to recognize the violation of the principles of Kenpo.


Kenpo principles allow for infinite applications but the human being is not capable of mastering infinite applications but rather finite techniques that are ingeniously designed to cover a multitude of variables that teach us to instinctively fit the attitude with the appropriate response in self-defense. The missing ingredient is usually consistent hard work. To many people in the art think the equation formula and the spontaneous stage are the top of our Kenpo Mountain. This is definitely an illusion of the ego, of course after a little training anyone can bust a few random moves versus a random attack and with a little imagination they can improvise on a learned combination but it is only Kenpo if it did not throw all the dang rules out the window. People reach the spontaneous stage and think they can now toss the curriculum out the window and teach in a spontaneous way lol Thus they get spontaneous results.
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Joined: February 1st, 2011, 2:55 am

March 20th, 2011, 8:47 pm #7

trying to eat your lucky charms with a sledge hammer rather than a spoon?

LOL! funny
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Joined: January 23rd, 2004, 8:11 pm

March 22nd, 2011, 11:17 pm #8

Kenpo is organized into a curriculum that affords the opportunity to learn its principles. When adhered to the principles enhance the application of Kenpo to effective levels in resolving dangers. Failure to internalize the principles of Kenpo will inevitably lead to a lack of effectiveness in the application of Kenpo. The Kenpo instructor has a responsibility to teach the students the Kenpo curriculum but the student also has a responsibility which is to internalize through dedicated practice the lessons being taught. If the student does not give up but persists in disciplined training with the guidance of a qualified instructor the results will likely be a skilled Kenpoist.


If the student is distracted from consistent training or the instructor is not qualified to teach the lessons in the curriculum it is inevitable that the student will find short comings in their Kenpo. The ego will likely create the illusion in the mind to place the blame on the system, to look over the hills to other martial arts systems or styles and shamelessly proclaim that had I only studied this or that other art I would be so much more capable! The truth is that this type of student will always find whatever method they study lacking because they are unwilling to see the true problem in the mirror. A topic for another day is how can you teach something that you yourself never learned how to do?


Another side of the Kenpo is lacking coin is unrealistic expectations. You can reasonably expect that if you learn Kenpo well you will improve your chances in self-defense but it is unreasonable to expect that learning any martial art will make you invincible in every possible situation. If you wish to compete in a grappling tournament and be victorious over those who specialize in techniques at this range you will have to put in the work of training to be better at grappling under the same rules they follow. Does that mean that Kenpo is lacking or are you trying to eat your lucky charms with a sledge hammer rather than a spoon? If you want to win in the boxing ring guess what you will have to learn? Boxing! If you wish to win at chess guess what moves you will be limited to using? The legal moves for that particular game! (unless no one is looking lol) Now, if you dont want to play games but rather want to survive in self-defense Kenpo is the right tool for the job You will still have to gain skill with that tool which means understanding the right ways to use it and the absolutely wrong ways to use it.

So guess what happens when a student becomes an instructor after training half-assed? They have to fill in the blanks that become apparent when teaching, so they may turn to this or that method but often times the case is either it was a failure to grasp a lesson contained in the system or a failure to recognize the violation of the principles of Kenpo.


Kenpo principles allow for infinite applications but the human being is not capable of mastering infinite applications but rather finite techniques that are ingeniously designed to cover a multitude of variables that teach us to instinctively fit the attitude with the appropriate response in self-defense. The missing ingredient is usually consistent hard work. To many people in the art think the equation formula and the spontaneous stage are the top of our Kenpo Mountain. This is definitely an illusion of the ego, of course after a little training anyone can bust a few random moves versus a random attack and with a little imagination they can improvise on a learned combination but it is only Kenpo if it did not throw all the dang rules out the window. People reach the spontaneous stage and think they can now toss the curriculum out the window and teach in a spontaneous way lol Thus they get spontaneous results.
"Kenpo is organized into a curriculum that affords the opportunity to learn its principles. When adhered to the principles enhance the application of Kenpo to effective levels in resolving dangers. Failure to internalize the principles of Kenpo will inevitably lead to a lack of effectiveness in the application of Kenpo. The Kenpo instructor has a responsibility to teach the students the Kenpo curriculum but the student also has a responsibility which is to internalize through dedicated practice the lessons being taught. If the student does not give up but persists in disciplined training with the guidance of a qualified instructor the results will likely be a skilled Kenpoist."

Agreed.


"If the student is distracted from consistent training or the instructor is not qualified to teach the lessons in the curriculum it is inevitable that the student will find short comings in their Kenpo. The ego will likely create the illusion in the mind to place the blame on the system, to look over the hills to other martial arts systems or styles and shamelessly proclaim that had I only studied this or that other art I would be so much more capable! The truth is that this type of student will always find whatever method they study lacking because they are unwilling to see the true problem in the mirror. A topic for another day is how can you teach something that you yourself never learned how to do?"

I agree, but OTOH, when ones ego takes over, and doesnt allow the person to look at anything else, when the ego is so big that people start to feel that something has all the answers when I may not, is just as harmful as what you describe above. People can take a little honda, and try to put on a fancy exhausst, fancy rims, fancy radio, body kits, and think that they're driving a Ferrari, but no matter how hard they try, it'll never be a Ferrari. In other words, dont try to turn something into something it isnt.


"Another side of the Kenpo is lacking coin is unrealistic expectations. You can reasonably expect that if you learn Kenpo well you will improve your chances in self-defense but it is unreasonable to expect that learning any martial art will make you invincible in every possible situation. If you wish to compete in a grappling tournament and be victorious over those who specialize in techniques at this range you will have to put in the work of training to be better at grappling under the same rules they follow. Does that mean that Kenpo is lacking or are you trying to eat your lucky charms with a sledge hammer rather than a spoon? If you want to win in the boxing ring guess what you will have to learn? Boxing! If you wish to win at chess guess what moves you will be limited to using? The legal moves for that particular game! (unless no one is looking lol) Now, if you dont want to play games but rather want to survive in self-defense Kenpo is the right tool for the job You will still have to gain skill with that tool which means understanding the right ways to use it and the absolutely wrong ways to use it."

Agreed...we'll probably never train for every situation. I also agree that if you 'play' the boxers game or grapplers game, you'll probably lose. But...IMO, I do think that its important to understand their game. If I want to ensure that my Kenpo will work when I'm on the ground, against a grappler, I better get my *** to a BJJ school. Nothing says ya gotta stop Kenpo, nothing says ya gotta train for 20yrs in BJJ, but, you can learn some basics, understand how they operate, and then find ways to add your Kenpo in. IMO, thats the better route than just laying down, with someone who isnt a good grappler, and try to figure things out. But thats just me.

"So guess what happens when a student becomes an instructor after training half-assed? They have to fill in the blanks that become apparent when teaching, so they may turn to this or that method but often times the case is either it was a failure to grasp a lesson contained in the system or a failure to recognize the violation of the principles of Kenpo.


Kenpo principles allow for infinite applications but the human being is not capable of mastering infinite applications but rather finite techniques that are ingeniously designed to cover a multitude of variables that teach us to instinctively fit the attitude with the appropriate response in self-defense. The missing ingredient is usually consistent hard work. To many people in the art think the equation formula and the spontaneous stage are the top of our Kenpo Mountain. This is definitely an illusion of the ego, of course after a little training anyone can bust a few random moves versus a random attack and with a little imagination they can improvise on a learned combination but it is only Kenpo if it did not throw all the dang rules out the window. People reach the spontaneous stage and think they can now toss the curriculum out the window and teach in a spontaneous way lol Thus they get spontaneous results."

Chances are, we're not going to pull off a full textbook tech anyways, so yes, you'll probably have to adjust on the fly. Of course, you still need to keep the principles of the art, but IMO, thats the goal we should be striving to reach...to be able to think outside of the box, not always have to rely on a textbook preset tech, and adapt accordingly. We should be able to take a tech, change it up, coming up with 3 or more ways to do that 1 tech, still staying within the concepts, principles, etc, that the art is teaching. Its not rocket science.

Mike

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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

March 23rd, 2011, 1:23 am #9

I agree the only way to really understand ground grappling is to study it with those who are skilled in that art and get on the ground and really execute those techniques and their counters. Watching UFC, DVDs, books or youtube may give you some good ideas but nothing comes as close as actually doing it.

I joined an MMA school last month (only for a month) to help me brush up before teaching the Modern Army Combatives Program this month. I got to say that the Ed Parker Uniform holds up very well for Jujutsu. In the process of brushing up I learned a lot of things... The reason I support the study of an Art like Kenpo over arts like kickboxing or BJJ is not because they have nothing worthwhile to teach but because it is far better to learn with a focus on self-defense first that way when you are kickboxing or ground grappling your mind-set is not WIN WIN WIN but rather what can I use from this mess that will help me avoid going home in a body bag.


The art may not be rocket science but it is a science. Lesser skilled or unlucky opponents can be beaten while still throwing alot of important ideas out the window. You can for example box for many years and your ability to knock out your avg. joe may be very high but your years of boxing in the ring may have caused you to lose awareness of the vulnerability of your lower limbs... those are the kinds of dangerous habits that come with spending to much time on the sporting side of martial arts...

In conclusion study everything, learn what you can but keep in mind whats real is that your life is easy to lose if you get into reckless habits of movement, secure that the game rules are going to keep you safe in the jungle of life.
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Joined: January 23rd, 2004, 8:11 pm

March 23rd, 2011, 6:11 pm #10

"I agree the only way to really understand ground grappling is to study it with those who are skilled in that art and get on the ground and really execute those techniques and their counters. Watching UFC, DVDs, books or youtube may give you some good ideas but nothing comes as close as actually doing it."

True.

"I joined an MMA school last month (only for a month) to help me brush up before teaching the Modern Army Combatives Program this month. I got to say that the Ed Parker Uniform holds up very well for Jujutsu. In the process of brushing up I learned a lot of things... The reason I support the study of an Art like Kenpo over arts like kickboxing or BJJ is not because they have nothing worthwhile to teach but because it is far better to learn with a focus on self-defense first that way when you are kickboxing or ground grappling your mind-set is not WIN WIN WIN but rather what can I use from this mess that will help me avoid going home in a body bag."

Agreed. There is a value to the 'sport arts' (yes I know some people hate that word...lol) but yeah, you're right, the mentality between the sport arts and the SD arts are different. This is why, for me, I take a handful of things from BJJ and try to drill them, with a Sd mindset. I still look for ways to input my Kenpo into the mix as well.


"The art may not be rocket science but it is a science. Lesser skilled or unlucky opponents can be beaten while still throwing alot of important ideas out the window. You can for example box for many years and your ability to knock out your avg. joe may be very high but your years of boxing in the ring may have caused you to lose awareness of the vulnerability of your lower limbs... those are the kinds of dangerous habits that come with spending to much time on the sporting side of martial arts..."

Agreed again. Just to clarify...I was talking about being able to still adhere to the principles, and other important things, but not always have to fall back on a preset technique. By no means, was I suggesting that we toss out the concepts. Im saying that we should still be able to keep those ideas even if we're not doing Attacking Mace, for a punch.

"In conclusion study everything, learn what you can but keep in mind whats real is that your life is easy to lose if you get into reckless habits of movement, secure that the game rules are going to keep you safe in the jungle of life."

Yes.


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