What is "defensive" vs. "offensive" kenpo?

What is "defensive" vs. "offensive" kenpo?

Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

February 11th, 2009, 12:58 am #1

Something KenpoJoe wrote below sparked some brain cells that were trying desperately to nod off. In it, he mentions the Freestyle Techs as offensive kenpo. To me, the only truly offensive kenpo is the garbage found on YouTube.

OK. Just kidding. Butt seriously, isn't all kenpo offensive? I mean, if distance is the first defense, then self-defense training should consist of evasive foot maneuvers, slipping/bobbing/weaving, and wind sprints. Maybe some Parkour free-running to help you get away once you ducked out...that would make it Parkour Kenpo. (sorry...been a crappy weekend).

Kenpo, from the opening move, is counter-offensive art. Take the oh-so-beaten-to-death example of 5 Swords. The block can be converted from something merely to prevent you from getting hit, to someting that breaks the other guys arm...or with opening up elipses, breaks his nose and rakes the cornea off the eyes on the way to breaking the arm. Not defensive at all: It's "conflict domination through superior firepower". Need an offensive technique because the guy won't move forward and take a poke at you? Convert the inward block in 5-S to an inward raking hammerfist across the mug, and just continue beating on him with the rest of the tech. Life depends on the outcome? Don't stop repeating the technique pattern until you see gray matter dripping out of his ears.

Do we really need stepping foward into an exchange to be spelled out for us in algebrese, or can we just launch forward with our lead hands whipping out the hammer-backnuckle-upward elbow-palm-heel rake from Hooking Wings?

I guess I always think of kenpo as "thinking mans pugilism". And hope most practitioners could think enough to see their way clear to bum rushing someone with the lawn mower blades facing the opponent, instead of the ground, if it came to that. Some bad guy is molesting your sacred Swiss Cheese stash...do you just run up to him, holler, and wait for him to swing on you, or can you apply enough creativity to the vocabulary of motion to make something useful up on the spot?

Obviously, legal issues are always a factor. But, to me, leaping balls first into the fray with a mmind set only on intent, not specifics, is the best way to enter personal combat. In a matter of heartbeats, the lay of the land can change so much as to be unrecognizable from the beginning. Only by developing the ability to adapt on the fly will we be able to dominate throguh superiority.

"The best Defense is a good Offense" can sometimes be reinterpreted "The best defense is a homocidal offense", at which point much off the stuff we do in the system cann start making applicable sense. Or does training by the book necessitate waiting for the guy to launch a specific attack?

End rant,

D.
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

February 11th, 2009, 1:21 am #2

<< "The best Defense is a good Offense" can sometimes be reinterpreted "The best defense is a homocidal offense", at which point much off the stuff we do in the system cann start making applicable sense. Or does training by the book necessitate waiting for the guy to launch a specific attack? >>



Well to hear Clyde or Will tell it (and since Larry taught them, umm gonna assume ultimately Larry as well) anything you "throw" at your opponent is a predetermined offensive move to get them to react the way you want them to TO defend. I'm sure they have a purtier way of sayin it more clearly but that's what my interpretation of what they said.



Even a faint move should be thrown with enough intent to draw them to flinch/move/react otherwise, wth's the point? Don't throw it and don't throw it if you have NO idea how he/she MAY react. If you want them to move to the right throw the attack where they would move to the right and then be sure you know what you're going to do when they do.



Will's always at least 2-3 moves ahead of anyone he's in front of. Frustrating at best but I'm starting to understand it more clearly. Not that I'm to the point where I can get HIM to do what I want yet, but I can at least learn through him (ok...from the ground...lol) and then try it on others until I can get it down to the science he has.



Uh yea. I'll keep tellin myself that one.



Basically you can't have a good defense if your offense sucks. You'll just end up eating something and you were better off not fighting to begin with if you have no strategy on how you plan to get this person to move to YOUR advantage...not theirs.



Back to the mats,



Angela

Last edited by kenpoangel on February 11th, 2009, 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: August 26th, 2005, 6:04 pm

February 11th, 2009, 5:32 am #3

painful entendres flying like chain punches
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

February 11th, 2009, 9:22 pm #4

Something KenpoJoe wrote below sparked some brain cells that were trying desperately to nod off. In it, he mentions the Freestyle Techs as offensive kenpo. To me, the only truly offensive kenpo is the garbage found on YouTube.

OK. Just kidding. Butt seriously, isn't all kenpo offensive? I mean, if distance is the first defense, then self-defense training should consist of evasive foot maneuvers, slipping/bobbing/weaving, and wind sprints. Maybe some Parkour free-running to help you get away once you ducked out...that would make it Parkour Kenpo. (sorry...been a crappy weekend).

Kenpo, from the opening move, is counter-offensive art. Take the oh-so-beaten-to-death example of 5 Swords. The block can be converted from something merely to prevent you from getting hit, to someting that breaks the other guys arm...or with opening up elipses, breaks his nose and rakes the cornea off the eyes on the way to breaking the arm. Not defensive at all: It's "conflict domination through superior firepower". Need an offensive technique because the guy won't move forward and take a poke at you? Convert the inward block in 5-S to an inward raking hammerfist across the mug, and just continue beating on him with the rest of the tech. Life depends on the outcome? Don't stop repeating the technique pattern until you see gray matter dripping out of his ears.

Do we really need stepping foward into an exchange to be spelled out for us in algebrese, or can we just launch forward with our lead hands whipping out the hammer-backnuckle-upward elbow-palm-heel rake from Hooking Wings?

I guess I always think of kenpo as "thinking mans pugilism". And hope most practitioners could think enough to see their way clear to bum rushing someone with the lawn mower blades facing the opponent, instead of the ground, if it came to that. Some bad guy is molesting your sacred Swiss Cheese stash...do you just run up to him, holler, and wait for him to swing on you, or can you apply enough creativity to the vocabulary of motion to make something useful up on the spot?

Obviously, legal issues are always a factor. But, to me, leaping balls first into the fray with a mmind set only on intent, not specifics, is the best way to enter personal combat. In a matter of heartbeats, the lay of the land can change so much as to be unrecognizable from the beginning. Only by developing the ability to adapt on the fly will we be able to dominate throguh superiority.

"The best Defense is a good Offense" can sometimes be reinterpreted "The best defense is a homocidal offense", at which point much off the stuff we do in the system cann start making applicable sense. Or does training by the book necessitate waiting for the guy to launch a specific attack?

End rant,

D.
I'm all for the open opinion we all have to debate, share, volley or agree/disagree about Kenpo views, but this is long winded as to an area that is a choice of someone's learning or even teaching as a value to a student on the Academic Level.
I would only think by now all Black Belts or even up to a good Blue Belt we could block-kick-punch and counter in the clssroom setting.
Ed Parker created a Formula for all Principles of learning from Forms/sets, techniques ect. to be used as a educational format of Martial Arts as a education much like any study as found in our school system of learning.
The alphabet of motion A-Z would be a good beginning and allow flexibility both in student & teacher to use as tools of our trade in learning his art as a Science instead of the typical Monkey-See, Monkey-Do way of training.
Hope your day goes better and sorry if your finding a struggle in the art of American Kenpo as to where the Why & How is identified and why it is called a System!

TCB....Sean Kelley
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Joined: January 22nd, 2004, 5:13 pm

February 12th, 2009, 5:12 am #5

Something KenpoJoe wrote below sparked some brain cells that were trying desperately to nod off. In it, he mentions the Freestyle Techs as offensive kenpo. To me, the only truly offensive kenpo is the garbage found on YouTube.

OK. Just kidding. Butt seriously, isn't all kenpo offensive? I mean, if distance is the first defense, then self-defense training should consist of evasive foot maneuvers, slipping/bobbing/weaving, and wind sprints. Maybe some Parkour free-running to help you get away once you ducked out...that would make it Parkour Kenpo. (sorry...been a crappy weekend).

Kenpo, from the opening move, is counter-offensive art. Take the oh-so-beaten-to-death example of 5 Swords. The block can be converted from something merely to prevent you from getting hit, to someting that breaks the other guys arm...or with opening up elipses, breaks his nose and rakes the cornea off the eyes on the way to breaking the arm. Not defensive at all: It's "conflict domination through superior firepower". Need an offensive technique because the guy won't move forward and take a poke at you? Convert the inward block in 5-S to an inward raking hammerfist across the mug, and just continue beating on him with the rest of the tech. Life depends on the outcome? Don't stop repeating the technique pattern until you see gray matter dripping out of his ears.

Do we really need stepping foward into an exchange to be spelled out for us in algebrese, or can we just launch forward with our lead hands whipping out the hammer-backnuckle-upward elbow-palm-heel rake from Hooking Wings?

I guess I always think of kenpo as "thinking mans pugilism". And hope most practitioners could think enough to see their way clear to bum rushing someone with the lawn mower blades facing the opponent, instead of the ground, if it came to that. Some bad guy is molesting your sacred Swiss Cheese stash...do you just run up to him, holler, and wait for him to swing on you, or can you apply enough creativity to the vocabulary of motion to make something useful up on the spot?

Obviously, legal issues are always a factor. But, to me, leaping balls first into the fray with a mmind set only on intent, not specifics, is the best way to enter personal combat. In a matter of heartbeats, the lay of the land can change so much as to be unrecognizable from the beginning. Only by developing the ability to adapt on the fly will we be able to dominate throguh superiority.

"The best Defense is a good Offense" can sometimes be reinterpreted "The best defense is a homocidal offense", at which point much off the stuff we do in the system cann start making applicable sense. Or does training by the book necessitate waiting for the guy to launch a specific attack?

End rant,

D.
Hi folks!
Davecc wrote:
"Something KenpoJoe wrote below sparked some brain cells that were trying desperately to nod off. In it, he mentions the Freestyle Techs as offensive kenpo. To me, the only truly offensive kenpo is the garbage found on YouTube.

OK. Just kidding. Butt seriously, isn't all kenpo offensive? I mean, if distance is the first defense, then self-defense training should consist of evasive foot maneuvers, slipping/bobbing/weaving, and wind sprints. Maybe some Parkour free-running to help you get away once you ducked out...that would make it Parkour Kenpo. (sorry...been a crappy weekend).

Kenpo, from the opening move, is counter-offensive art. Take the oh-so-beaten-to-death example of 5 Swords. The block can be converted from something merely to prevent you from getting hit, to someting that breaks the other guys arm...or with opening up elipses, breaks his nose and rakes the cornea off the eyes on the way to breaking the arm. Not defensive at all: It's "conflict domination through superior firepower". Need an offensive technique because the guy won't move forward and take a poke at you? Convert the inward block in 5-S to an inward raking hammerfist across the mug, and just continue beating on him with the rest of the tech. Life depends on the outcome? Don't stop repeating the technique pattern until you see gray matter dripping out of his ears.

Do we really need stepping foward into an exchange to be spelled out for us in algebrese, or can we just launch forward with our lead hands whipping out the hammer-backnuckle-upward elbow-palm-heel rake from Hooking Wings?

I guess I always think of kenpo as "thinking mans pugilism". And hope most practitioners could think enough to see their way clear to bum rushing someone with the lawn mower blades facing the opponent, instead of the ground, if it came to that. Some bad guy is molesting your sacred Swiss Cheese stash...do you just run up to him, holler, and wait for him to swing on you, or can you apply enough creativity to the vocabulary of motion to make something useful up on the spot?

Obviously, legal issues are always a factor. But, to me, leaping balls first into the fray with a mmind set only on intent, not specifics, is the best way to enter personal combat. In a matter of heartbeats, the lay of the land can change so much as to be unrecognizable from the beginning. Only by developing the ability to adapt on the fly will we be able to dominate throguh superiority.

"The best Defense is a good Offense" can sometimes be reinterpreted "The best defense is a homocidal offense", at which point much off the stuff we do in the system cann start making applicable sense. Or does training by the book necessitate waiting for the guy to launch a specific attack?

End rant,"

wow.
Didn't know I had that effect on you.
COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK,now that I have your attention!
The concept of "offensive kenpo" is based on the fact that your opponent gets into a stance,tell you he's going to "kick your ..." and basically does everything short of semiphore that he's going to attack you! The question is "Do you wait?". Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Actually I like a GREAT offense! But the entire concept of a pre-emptive strike has it's merit and it's place. And if you consider MY youtube kenpo segments offensive? In my experienced professional opinion...PPPPPPPPBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTTTTTTT!
:-P
...ah, I feel so much better now.
BTW: "Parkour Kenpo"? That's some funny stuff right there,that is!
Dave, you said it all by simply stating "Kenpo, from the opening move, is counter-offensive art." Truer word were never spoken. [at least I think so...for right now]
Regarding the image of 5 swords..thank you. I have to wipe the drool from my mouth [ROFLMAO]
Take solace in the fact that I failed algebra but passed Kenpo logic.
btw, the reason we step forward in 5 swords? Mr. Parker mentioned on how he used to hold up the wall at the school dances by leaning up against the wall & one of his "buddies" decided to throw a haymaker at him while he was against the wall [with friends like that who needs enemas?]Hence, a concept was born! One of the themes of the orange belt material is the fact that you CANNOT step back due to the fact that your back is to a wall. [I.E: triggered salute,dance of death,gift of destruction,locking horns,glancing salute,5 swords,etc...]
To paraphrase the late great George Carlin:"Now that I've shared this affair of the rant,I think I'll repair to my lair and we'll bant!" ...about other topics.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE




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Joined: January 22nd, 2004, 5:13 pm

February 12th, 2009, 5:15 am #6

i SHOULD HAVE ACTUALLY USED "RANTER" & "BANTER".
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

February 12th, 2009, 5:16 am #7

I'm all for the open opinion we all have to debate, share, volley or agree/disagree about Kenpo views, but this is long winded as to an area that is a choice of someone's learning or even teaching as a value to a student on the Academic Level.
I would only think by now all Black Belts or even up to a good Blue Belt we could block-kick-punch and counter in the clssroom setting.
Ed Parker created a Formula for all Principles of learning from Forms/sets, techniques ect. to be used as a educational format of Martial Arts as a education much like any study as found in our school system of learning.
The alphabet of motion A-Z would be a good beginning and allow flexibility both in student & teacher to use as tools of our trade in learning his art as a Science instead of the typical Monkey-See, Monkey-Do way of training.
Hope your day goes better and sorry if your finding a struggle in the art of American Kenpo as to where the Why & How is identified and why it is called a System!

TCB....Sean Kelley
What does that response have to do with anything? I'm sure you were trying to make a positive contribution to an open discussion, but it comes across as something less congenial. Perhaps you'll clarify?

D.
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

February 12th, 2009, 5:18 am #8

i SHOULD HAVE ACTUALLY USED "RANTER" & "BANTER".
The tone of the thread clearly invites humor, and bad puns. Note for improvement on the pun noted, and appreciated.

D.
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

February 12th, 2009, 3:27 pm #9

What does that response have to do with anything? I'm sure you were trying to make a positive contribution to an open discussion, but it comes across as something less congenial. Perhaps you'll clarify?

D.
I was just reading a heavy read of words of possible emotions on your behalf and as always I'm sorry you take me as a guy on the attack.
We may have different views as most on this forum will always share but like a few who are on this and hide behind the Computer Curtain, I do not and are quite exposed in the open arena for shaking hands or trading blows if it need be.
I find it ironic as I'm sure you do how much opinion and anonymous names appear with tough talk but never have they been seen at any event,or available to prove their words are greater than the ego that throw air punches/kicks as Casper the Friendly Kenpo Ghost.
I apologies if you mis-read me as I was not trying to be negative.....TCB



TCB....Sean Kelley
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

February 12th, 2009, 3:30 pm #10

i SHOULD HAVE ACTUALLY USED "RANTER" & "BANTER".
....I enjoy the humor and applaud the ability to have a few laughs and from any angle from time to time...keep it coming we all need to smile these days!!!!

TCB....Sean Kelley
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