Twist of Fate

Twist of Fate

Joined: August 14th, 2004, 8:13 am

November 25th, 2011, 8:09 pm #1

Interesting discussion down below, which got me to thinking lets have some good natured discussion on this tech.

I shall pose this question: What is the most important move in this tech, why, how is it applied and what are the consequences of the action?


Be NICE!

Best in Kenpo,
BC.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 23rd, 2010, 6:36 pm

November 25th, 2011, 8:27 pm #2

there's more to come.

Clark
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 26th, 2011, 12:26 pm #3

Interesting discussion down below, which got me to thinking lets have some good natured discussion on this tech.

I shall pose this question: What is the most important move in this tech, why, how is it applied and what are the consequences of the action?


Be NICE!

Best in Kenpo,
BC.
Which technique is next in this sequence of pushes? One for hand range, next one for leg range, what's next?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Posted by 66.215.244.139 viahttp://webwarper.net This is added while posting a message to avoid misuse.
Try:http://webwarper.net/webwarper.exe Example of viewing:http://webwarper.net/ww/www.network54.c ... 60433/post ]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 19th, 2011, 3:50 pm

November 26th, 2011, 1:08 pm #4

I believe encounter with danger is the next technique in this sequence. twist of fate drives you back into kicking range. Encounter with danger drives you to the ground. I don't think I would call it grappling range, since the kicks are preventing it. I would call it ground kicking range. (If there is such a thing).
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 26th, 2011, 1:22 pm #5

Seems you understand the nature of catalysts, am I right?


Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Posted by 66.215.244.139 viahttp://webwarper.net This is added while posting a message to avoid misuse.
Try:http://webwarper.net/webwarper.exe Example of viewing:http://webwarper.net/ww/www.network54.c ... 60433/post ]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 19th, 2011, 3:50 pm

November 26th, 2011, 2:34 pm #6

I remember your seminar at PKA years ago. You spent some time on catalysts and nature of attack. We were working on Alternating maces versus snaking talon. Snaking talon starts off like altenating maces, but turns into a driving push. The nature of attack changes the technique to snaking talon. We felt the difference in the catalysts and the effectiveness of the appropriate techniques. This made me think of the difference between parting wings, twist of fate and encounter with danger and the difference between the catalysts.
Would you say that parting wings, twist of fate, and ecounter with danger is in the same family of front pushes due to their progression. While alternating maces, and snaking talon are of the same family? It seems to me that the push with alternating maces and snaking talon is a little lower (mid level) and the hands closer together. Or are they all from the same family of front pushes?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 26th, 2011, 2:40 pm #7

It's kind of amazing how feeling these attacks can lead to the conclusions of what to do naturally, and it's taught that way in the system.

And yes, the position of hands is slightly different in Alternating Mace/Snaking Talon vs. Parting Wings/TOF/EWD, funny you should mention that now, the conversation is just getting good LOL.

Good show, and glad the lessons stuck. Kick Jeff for me, but be nice, his back is still screwy.

[Posted by 66.215.244.139 vihttp://webwarper.net This is added while posting a message to avoid misuse.
Tryhttp://webwarper.net/webwarper.exe Example of viewinghttp://webwarper.net/ww/www.network54.c ... 60433/post ]
Last edited by ClydeT on November 26th, 2011, 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

November 26th, 2011, 5:20 pm #8

Interesting discussion down below, which got me to thinking lets have some good natured discussion on this tech.

I shall pose this question: What is the most important move in this tech, why, how is it applied and what are the consequences of the action?


Be NICE!

Best in Kenpo,
BC.
The most important move in this technique is the catalyst, simply because it dictates the technique.

Now I have a question in return, What phase solid. liquid, gas etc. is this technique and why?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 10th, 2005, 6:38 pm

November 26th, 2011, 11:05 pm #9

is what dictates the technique. Catalysts should be secondary to environmental considerations, and this is why position recognition is a better conceptual model, in my opinion.

A further flaw in the catalyst model is the number of variables this allows for. Under duress, it is impossible to respond quickly to a given situation from a list of 154 (more if you count the extensions, which you should) possible response variables. Even if sub-categorization, or chunking is done, which it will be, whether consciously or not, there are too many response variables to pull anything off consistently. To argue this point is ridiculous as both research and anecdotal evidence have shown it to be true.

A better model is that of position recognition, which now cuts down the variables to a workable level. In concordance with environmental limitations, you then train the responses. Chunking of response variables to both environmental and position recognition mandates, allows the system the flexibility needed, yet is contained enough to still allow for realistic variable response under duress.

In short, the catalyst model may be a good conversation piece and is even a decent teaching model on limited scenario based occasions, but as a pedagogical model for physical movement it is not efficient in terms of American Kenpo's number of techniques. It's basis as a curriculum framework is slightly better, but it still lacks in its application. Organizational response frameworks based on physical responses to stimulus, by nature, have to be limited if the response is meant to have consistent success. The problem is there isn't any money in this model, at least for a sustainable amount of time. For advanced movement principles, the mistake is continuing the analysis of the material, instead of shifting to synthesis of the material, but again, there isn't any money in that.

Have fun training,
Troy
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

November 27th, 2011, 12:26 am #10

The catalyst happens within the context of the environment, Dont forgot your opponent is also bound by the same environment. Yes you can get pushed into a wall but all that changes is the catalyst it may re-catalyze you but it does not negate that a catalyst is what allows the precedural memory to execute according to the training you have, now if people train without realistic catalyst they wont know what to do. Position Recognition is ARMM-ing which you will do through out.

Check it out, when you recognize a position what do you do next Do you not adjust, do you not regulate your action to deal with the position and action of your opponent, so you can get to targets and use your prefered method of execution. In the end you ARMM right back to an IDEAL, thus EVEN-IF. Do not let the idea of 154 different techniques screw with your head and make you think your picking one from your memory to deal with a specific attack, You ingrain the system and the 154 become one thing... Kenpo, you wiggle your fingers and Kenpo comes out lol
Quote
Like
Share