The Problem with Five Swords

The Problem with Five Swords

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 3:17 pm #1

First off I want to thank all who responded below. The problem with five swords comes in with the initial block, which is what Mr. Post mentioned (not wanting to block one limb with both his arms).

The problem is it violates a principle. By blocking with the lead arm it could easily get trapped (Bruce Lee brought this out). If you were the puncher and someone blocked you like that you could trap the front blocking hand and hit the person in the face with your right hand (back knuckle or vertical punch to head). This is what wing chun practitioners do (centerline principle).

Because I was a boxer, I see many of our Kenpo techniques leaving openings. For instance if I threw that roundhouse punch and you blocked with both arms your right side of your face is open for my left hook.


To avoid this problem just pick the block up with the rear hand, if you have your heart set on blocking. I'm not a fan of the traditional blocking. Our arms should be offensive tools (striking and grabbing). You don't see those goofy blocks in boxing or kickboxing because people would get rocked. I'm not saying the blocks have no value and I am fully aware of "every strike is a block and every block is a strike." The problem is people recite all these Mr. Parker quotes, but don't put them into action.

Salute,

Michael Miller, CKF
Last edited by millhouse23 on November 3rd, 2010, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 5th, 2010, 11:38 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 4:07 pm #2

_"Because I was a boxer, I see many of our Kenpo techniques leaving openings. For instance if I threw that roundhouse punch and you blocked with both arms your right side of your face is open for my left hook."_

The technique is for a streetfighters roundhouse. You'd never see a boxer throw that punch in the ring.


_"By blocking with the lead arm it could easily get trapped (Bruce Lee brought this out). If you were the puncher and someone blocked you like that you could trap the front blocking hand and hit the person in the face with your right hand (back knuckle or vertical punch to head). This is what wing chun practitioners do (centerline principle)."_

You are working off the wrong centerline. In order to make that initial block work, you have to work on the apparent centerline, which is defined by the force vector of his punch. This is about 15' to your left.

Also, while you may "block" his arm with both yours, the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately.

Dan



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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 4:18 pm #3

"The technique is for a streetfighters roundhouse. You'd never see a boxer throw that punch in the ring."

I've seen boxers throw that punch many times -- especially in amateur boxing. Over fifty percent of amateurs throw roundhouse/haymaker punches -- especially amateurs who aren't trained well. I've also seen many pros throw that punch. The difference is if they are wise boxers they won't step through with the roundhouse.


"You are working off the wrong centerline. In order to make that initial block work, you have to work on the apparent centerline, which is defined by the force vector of his punch. This is about 15' to your left."

Not according to Bruce Lee. I've been told by a couple people who were there that they could not make this work on Bruce.

"Also, while you may 'block' his arm with both yours, the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately."

I agree with you here, except you will then have no travel for the first hand sword (to neck). Since it's a slicing hand sword as a minor move, however, it's no big deal anyway I suppose.



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Joined: November 3rd, 2009, 8:01 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 6:09 pm #4

_"Because I was a boxer, I see many of our Kenpo techniques leaving openings. For instance if I threw that roundhouse punch and you blocked with both arms your right side of your face is open for my left hook."_

The technique is for a streetfighters roundhouse. You'd never see a boxer throw that punch in the ring.


_"By blocking with the lead arm it could easily get trapped (Bruce Lee brought this out). If you were the puncher and someone blocked you like that you could trap the front blocking hand and hit the person in the face with your right hand (back knuckle or vertical punch to head). This is what wing chun practitioners do (centerline principle)."_

You are working off the wrong centerline. In order to make that initial block work, you have to work on the apparent centerline, which is defined by the force vector of his punch. This is about 15' to your left.

Also, while you may "block" his arm with both yours, the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately.

Dan


"the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately."

How does this end the fight immediately?

Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu - 410-948-1440

"the only thing we slap on are submissions"
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Joined: February 28th, 2004, 1:04 am

November 3rd, 2010, 7:36 pm #5

_"Because I was a boxer, I see many of our Kenpo techniques leaving openings. For instance if I threw that roundhouse punch and you blocked with both arms your right side of your face is open for my left hook."_

The technique is for a streetfighters roundhouse. You'd never see a boxer throw that punch in the ring.


_"By blocking with the lead arm it could easily get trapped (Bruce Lee brought this out). If you were the puncher and someone blocked you like that you could trap the front blocking hand and hit the person in the face with your right hand (back knuckle or vertical punch to head). This is what wing chun practitioners do (centerline principle)."_

You are working off the wrong centerline. In order to make that initial block work, you have to work on the apparent centerline, which is defined by the force vector of his punch. This is about 15' to your left.

Also, while you may "block" his arm with both yours, the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately.

Dan


I agree with working off the wrong centerline....

If both of you are in motion, how do you keep the centerline from changing?????

I cheat the angle and make them compensate to where I want them....but hey, that's just me....

Ever work 5 Swords on their left outside instead of their right inside?

Rich
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Joined: September 5th, 2010, 11:38 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 8:03 pm #6

_"Ever work 5 Swords on their left outside instead of their right inside?"_

Works great for baseball bat swings, right handed "batter".

Dan
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Joined: September 5th, 2010, 11:38 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 8:13 pm #7

"the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately."

How does this end the fight immediately?

Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu - 410-948-1440

"the only thing we slap on are submissions"
_"How does this end the fight immediately?"_

Ideal phase, this is for a streetfighters fully commited roundhouse. His swing leads all action, as he is totally focused on a one strike victory. His action is unsupported by his base, as the right leg lags the punch. The wide arcing arm is a lever which, along with his momentum and lack of structural integrety, can be used against him.

A hammerfist strike, delivered and timed correctly, right into his right shoulder join should dislocate both right shoulder joints. It will also stop his upper body momentum, but the swing and step will collapse. He should be disoriented and in shock.

Will this absolutely work 100% of the time? No, obviously there are no guarantees in a fight. But remember too, ideal phase assumes you are at least closely matched in size to your opponent. Done correctly, THAT opponent should collapse, his shoulder destroyed. Fight over, in the vast majority of cases.

Dan
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

November 3rd, 2010, 8:14 pm #8

I agree with working off the wrong centerline....

If both of you are in motion, how do you keep the centerline from changing?????

I cheat the angle and make them compensate to where I want them....but hey, that's just me....

Ever work 5 Swords on their left outside instead of their right inside?

Rich
...don't we have other techniques that are essentially Five Swords to the outside of the left, outside of the right, etc?

Dan Puleo
Last edited by DanPuleo on November 3rd, 2010, 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

November 3rd, 2010, 8:25 pm #9

_"How does this end the fight immediately?"_

Ideal phase, this is for a streetfighters fully commited roundhouse. His swing leads all action, as he is totally focused on a one strike victory. His action is unsupported by his base, as the right leg lags the punch. The wide arcing arm is a lever which, along with his momentum and lack of structural integrety, can be used against him.

A hammerfist strike, delivered and timed correctly, right into his right shoulder join should dislocate both right shoulder joints. It will also stop his upper body momentum, but the swing and step will collapse. He should be disoriented and in shock.

Will this absolutely work 100% of the time? No, obviously there are no guarantees in a fight. But remember too, ideal phase assumes you are at least closely matched in size to your opponent. Done correctly, THAT opponent should collapse, his shoulder destroyed. Fight over, in the vast majority of cases.

Dan
I like the shoulder strike but prefer a vertical punch a la Calming the Storm - unless the point of origin of your hands is high. Then, the hammerfist is the better option. From a hands-down position, or even a boxer's stance, the vertical punch gets there quicker, is better supported, and, in my opinion, is better suited to causing the kind if damage you described. With a hammerfist, I might aim for the clavicle while throwing up a left extended outward block as a cover. For fun, you could hammer the clavicle and pass through Mace of Aggression on your way to completing Five Swords.

Dan Puleo
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Joined: September 5th, 2010, 11:38 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 8:32 pm #10

"The technique is for a streetfighters roundhouse. You'd never see a boxer throw that punch in the ring."

I've seen boxers throw that punch many times -- especially in amateur boxing. Over fifty percent of amateurs throw roundhouse/haymaker punches -- especially amateurs who aren't trained well. I've also seen many pros throw that punch. The difference is if they are wise boxers they won't step through with the roundhouse.


"You are working off the wrong centerline. In order to make that initial block work, you have to work on the apparent centerline, which is defined by the force vector of his punch. This is about 15' to your left."

Not according to Bruce Lee. I've been told by a couple people who were there that they could not make this work on Bruce.

"Also, while you may 'block' his arm with both yours, the prefered target for your right is his right shoulder join. This ends the fight immediately."

I agree with you here, except you will then have no travel for the first hand sword (to neck). Since it's a slicing hand sword as a minor move, however, it's no big deal anyway I suppose.


_"I've seen boxers throw that punch many times -- especially in amateur boxing. Over fifty percent of amateurs throw roundhouse/haymaker punches -- especially amateurs who aren't trained well. I've also seen many pros throw that punch. The difference is if they are wise boxers they won't step through with the roundhouse."_

Then that punch is not the one thrown in 5 Swords. I'll give you the rank amatures might, point taken. And, since you can't run 5 Swords in the ring, maybe you should work on something else for those times. But since we are talking kenpo, I don't see the relevance.


_"Not according to Bruce Lee. I've been told by a couple people who were there that they could not make this work on Bruce."_

Bruce Lee did not design the technique. If you are working off the primary central line, and if Bruce Lee was allowed to throw his version of a roundhouse, then you probably would be had. Otherwise- no disrespect to Bruce Lee, but I doubt even he could pull that one out of the fire.

Remember that this is a defense against a haymaker, swinging wide and arcing in with intent to take your head off. His initial step lags the punch, and the force of that punch is coming in from a strong vector to his right. That is where you want to catch him, along that vector. It not only deals with that strike, as well as his force, but moves you to a relative zone of safety, away from his left side momentarily.

_" ... you will then have no travel for the first hand sword (to neck)."_

Oh, definately you have to travel. But there is nothing wrong with a foot maneuver adding to the effect of a minor move. And you have time, since he should be in a major flinch, so you could not rush it and turn that handsword into a very major move.

Dan

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