Tech Haters Cont...

Tech Haters Cont...

Joined: October 21st, 2010, 5:15 pm

November 16th, 2010, 8:24 pm #1

So of all the dribble about how this works and that doesn't and we do it this way and I do it that way, not once has anyone (that I have seen) addressed the one predetermining factor or element prior to any attack? Telegraphing/point of origin... out of all of the video posted on the net and all of the fights that I have seen and been a part of telegraphing is common to all of them. Almost everyone has a foot or shoulder or head movement that leads them into or is prior to any offensive or defensive move. People (generally) don't REALLY train themselves to not telegraph. There is almost always a foot moving or head bob or cock that happens pre-attack or defense. Before you hop on and start attacking this watch some of your own videos, and watch the "big picture" to see what is and what isn't moving prior to any offensive or defensive move. This is an element that is or should be learned as a direct result of practicing forms/kata yet most people don't. This is an observation not an attack, if I where attacking I would post video of various individuals and their "telegraphic ways".

Let the Games begin!
Todd Durgan
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

November 16th, 2010, 10:23 pm #2

When I was first introduced to the idea that people give away what they are going to do by how they position themselves prior to execution...We used to do readings where a fighter would take his fighting guard for 1 second and then we would read what his opening attack was going to be, what his style of fighting was, what his favorite strike is and so on...

Then one day I got into a fight with guy in a thick leather jacket, He took a position hands open at his sides and hunched down his legs in position for a drive and I thought, oh he will use a tackle let me go ahead and position my hands low so I can catch his skull as he dives down lol, sure enough he shot in for the tackle...except he tossed in a wild overhead right while in route, caught me right on the eyebrow splitting it open lol!
The blood filled my eye and I thought he had blinded me... that fight ended with my being tackled and handcuffed by police... the energy of youth!

Well my point is that one man's telegraph is another man's feint.
Last edited by kenposoldier01 on November 16th, 2010, 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

November 16th, 2010, 11:47 pm #3

"Well my point is that one man's telegraph is another man's feint."

Absolutely correct, Sami. You beat me to it. I am going to make the attacker think I am going to do one thing and surprise him with another. Same thing in the ring or cage - set him up. Get him thinking low and go high, get him thinking high and go low.
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Joined: August 23rd, 2010, 6:36 pm

November 16th, 2010, 11:53 pm #4

When I was first introduced to the idea that people give away what they are going to do by how they position themselves prior to execution...We used to do readings where a fighter would take his fighting guard for 1 second and then we would read what his opening attack was going to be, what his style of fighting was, what his favorite strike is and so on...

Then one day I got into a fight with guy in a thick leather jacket, He took a position hands open at his sides and hunched down his legs in position for a drive and I thought, oh he will use a tackle let me go ahead and position my hands low so I can catch his skull as he dives down lol, sure enough he shot in for the tackle...except he tossed in a wild overhead right while in route, caught me right on the eyebrow splitting it open lol!
The blood filled my eye and I thought he had blinded me... that fight ended with my being tackled and handcuffed by police... the energy of youth!

Well my point is that one man's telegraph is another man's feint.
Look at the posture and decipher where their weight is distributed.
Each stance has its strengths and weaknesses where striking is concerned.
The tree that has one leaf on it, when the wind blows...
The tree that has lots of leaves on it, when the wind blows....

If your perspective is only on the ideal phase attacks, you will miss the true intent of the un-ideal attack. And of course then you have to what if and formulate and go to the hospital because you broke your hand on his forehead instead of breaking his collar bone.....

Clark
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Joined: August 14th, 2004, 8:13 am

November 17th, 2010, 2:15 am #5

So of all the dribble about how this works and that doesn't and we do it this way and I do it that way, not once has anyone (that I have seen) addressed the one predetermining factor or element prior to any attack? Telegraphing/point of origin... out of all of the video posted on the net and all of the fights that I have seen and been a part of telegraphing is common to all of them. Almost everyone has a foot or shoulder or head movement that leads them into or is prior to any offensive or defensive move. People (generally) don't REALLY train themselves to not telegraph. There is almost always a foot moving or head bob or cock that happens pre-attack or defense. Before you hop on and start attacking this watch some of your own videos, and watch the "big picture" to see what is and what isn't moving prior to any offensive or defensive move. This is an element that is or should be learned as a direct result of practicing forms/kata yet most people don't. This is an observation not an attack, if I where attacking I would post video of various individuals and their "telegraphic ways".

Let the Games begin!
Todd Durgan
Re: Hmmm.
Last edited by BC07 on November 17th, 2010, 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: August 14th, 2004, 8:13 am

November 17th, 2010, 2:16 am #6

So of all the dribble about how this works and that doesn't and we do it this way and I do it that way, not once has anyone (that I have seen) addressed the one predetermining factor or element prior to any attack? Telegraphing/point of origin... out of all of the video posted on the net and all of the fights that I have seen and been a part of telegraphing is common to all of them. Almost everyone has a foot or shoulder or head movement that leads them into or is prior to any offensive or defensive move. People (generally) don't REALLY train themselves to not telegraph. There is almost always a foot moving or head bob or cock that happens pre-attack or defense. Before you hop on and start attacking this watch some of your own videos, and watch the "big picture" to see what is and what isn't moving prior to any offensive or defensive move. This is an element that is or should be learned as a direct result of practicing forms/kata yet most people don't. This is an observation not an attack, if I where attacking I would post video of various individuals and their "telegraphic ways".

Let the Games begin!
Todd Durgan
not once has anyone (that I have seen) addressed the one predetermining factor or element prior to any attack? Telegraphing/point of origin...

I see where you are going with this, but just wanted to clear up the word predetermined, verb: 'to establish or decide in advance'.

If movement is established through natural inherent or learned spontaneous response then I can hear your point, if not and is decided before action is taken it is not telegraphing but rather a feint. In either case telegraphing is not the one predetermined element or factor prior to attack, environmental awareness is.

A deeper study into environmental awareness and dimensional zones and how these relate to tech application will have far greater benefits than looking for telegraphed motion. The reason being is that theses are self defense techs, that require an attack to have been already initiated and committed to.

Wether you are utilizing your techs from a free style view point (That is to say you have squared off and are ready for whats coming) or you are reacting spontaneously to an attack that is initiated without your consent the same basic principles apply.

Action in either case is faster than reaction wether you are monitoring his pivot points (shoulders hips) or his attacking agents (fist, feet, elbows, knees), the most important things to remember an train for are 1. Remove the point of contact (your face maybe).
2. If possible meet the action with or without contacting the attacking agent (examples of meeting action without contact would be in my book any way you can close down the distance and get inside your opponents outer rim, or as Master Pick states if I am correct, get inside the spinal ring, this can be done by slipping, ducking under and stepping diagonally toward an attack or up/down the circle).

I know from his earlier posts that Mr.Miller has a boxing history as do I, when you are in the ring your opponent can bob, weave and faint all day, but unless he understands the basics (physics, geometry and psychology) of the environment it counts for nothing if to use a boxing term you "be first" to make contact. And being FIRST requires an understanding and ability to do the above.

Best in Kenpo,
Brye Cooper.
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Joined: September 5th, 2010, 11:38 pm

November 17th, 2010, 6:30 am #7

So of all the dribble about how this works and that doesn't and we do it this way and I do it that way, not once has anyone (that I have seen) addressed the one predetermining factor or element prior to any attack? Telegraphing/point of origin... out of all of the video posted on the net and all of the fights that I have seen and been a part of telegraphing is common to all of them. Almost everyone has a foot or shoulder or head movement that leads them into or is prior to any offensive or defensive move. People (generally) don't REALLY train themselves to not telegraph. There is almost always a foot moving or head bob or cock that happens pre-attack or defense. Before you hop on and start attacking this watch some of your own videos, and watch the "big picture" to see what is and what isn't moving prior to any offensive or defensive move. This is an element that is or should be learned as a direct result of practicing forms/kata yet most people don't. This is an observation not an attack, if I where attacking I would post video of various individuals and their "telegraphic ways".

Let the Games begin!
Todd Durgan
a few pages back now-

Angela posted a short page from Larry tatum on learning to recognize the minute tells that precede any offensive action. There are slight structural adjustments that precede an attack, whether planned or reflexive, that will not only tell you the attack is imminent but what it will be- push or punch was the illustration in that discussion, I believe.

MA's train this structure every time we do basics. The big, intricate blocks (receptions), strikes, parries, etc. are done to recruit the proper muscles and align the body for maximum efficiency in the movement. One reason they are trained so rigidly into muscle memory is so they can be done point of origin and still recruit the internal structure with minimal telegraphing. The Chinese say "learn with large circles, then learn to hide it in your sleeve."

If you can get ahold of Angela, see if she'll post it again. It was pretty good.

Dan
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Joined: September 5th, 2010, 11:38 pm

November 17th, 2010, 6:52 am #8

The thread is on page 4 now (3 pages back), and is titled "Questions on Triggered Salute," if you want to look.

Dan
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Joined: March 11th, 2007, 5:35 pm

November 17th, 2010, 8:42 am #9

a few pages back now-

Angela posted a short page from Larry tatum on learning to recognize the minute tells that precede any offensive action. There are slight structural adjustments that precede an attack, whether planned or reflexive, that will not only tell you the attack is imminent but what it will be- push or punch was the illustration in that discussion, I believe.

MA's train this structure every time we do basics. The big, intricate blocks (receptions), strikes, parries, etc. are done to recruit the proper muscles and align the body for maximum efficiency in the movement. One reason they are trained so rigidly into muscle memory is so they can be done point of origin and still recruit the internal structure with minimal telegraphing. The Chinese say "learn with large circles, then learn to hide it in your sleeve."

If you can get ahold of Angela, see if she'll post it again. It was pretty good.

Dan
Dan:
a few pages back now-

Chad:
So?

Dan:
Angela posted a short page from Larry tatum on learning to recognize the minute tells that precede any offensive action. There are slight structural adjustments that precede an attack, whether planned or reflexive, that will not only tell you the attack is imminent but what it will be- push or punch was the illustration in that discussion, I believe.

Chad:
Not necessarily. Some people know the hand is faster than the eye so they move the hand first and the rest of the body follows to the target they created in out of range control.

Dan:
MA's train this structure every time we do basics. The big, intricate blocks (receptions), strikes, parries, etc. are done to recruit the proper muscles and align the body for maximum efficiency in the movement. One reason they are trained so rigidly into muscle memory is so they can be done point of origin and still recruit the internal structure with minimal telegraphing. The Chinese say "learn with large circles, then learn to hide it in your sleeve."

Chad:
What good is training structure if you are off plane? Basics are trained over and over as a place to practice the system government. When you move off plane you lose efficiency and your path to the target is delayed and takes more effort thus generating heat and burning unnecessary energy.

Dan:
If you can get ahold of Angela, see if she'll post it again. It was pretty good.

Chad:
Why? Anyone can add anything here they like. There are a lot of right answers, the wrong ones lead to exhaustion and fatigue before you finished an attacker.

Have a nice day
W
http://www.kenpoguy.com/
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Joined: February 28th, 2004, 1:04 am

November 17th, 2010, 9:30 am #10

So of all the dribble about how this works and that doesn't and we do it this way and I do it that way, not once has anyone (that I have seen) addressed the one predetermining factor or element prior to any attack? Telegraphing/point of origin... out of all of the video posted on the net and all of the fights that I have seen and been a part of telegraphing is common to all of them. Almost everyone has a foot or shoulder or head movement that leads them into or is prior to any offensive or defensive move. People (generally) don't REALLY train themselves to not telegraph. There is almost always a foot moving or head bob or cock that happens pre-attack or defense. Before you hop on and start attacking this watch some of your own videos, and watch the "big picture" to see what is and what isn't moving prior to any offensive or defensive move. This is an element that is or should be learned as a direct result of practicing forms/kata yet most people don't. This is an observation not an attack, if I where attacking I would post video of various individuals and their "telegraphic ways".

Let the Games begin!
Todd Durgan
That's why Zones are so important and not letting someone get in range prior to determining their true intent.

I opt for tripping their trigger ahead of time....throwing my hands up, facial expressions not to mention verbal leads.....

Waiting is good for them and bad for you.

Rich
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