Sparring (round 2)

Sparring (round 2)

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

January 20th, 2010, 8:51 pm #1

When I posted below, I wasn't stating that I feel you shouldn't spar. I think some people perceived it that way. Again, I have sparred more times than I can count, and have done so many ways.

I was simply asking if you felt that if you didn't spar on a regular basis, whether or not you would have success in a self-defense situation.

So, I'll rephrase for those who either a) didn't understand, b) didn't pay attention, or c) didn't care.

Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense?

After all, you can't spar your entire life. Just curious!
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Joined: June 1st, 2005, 5:34 am

January 20th, 2010, 8:57 pm #2

when you stop sparring, you will lose an edge on your timing, recognition, etc..

now thats not to say that some people are not better off stopping sparring...
Its the whole law of diminishing return.... or return on investment.... or a combination of those..
if you are at a higher risk of being injured by sparring then you are of being attacked in the street, then by all means stop sparring... If you have a greater risk of a worse injury from sparring then what you might face in the streets then by all means stop sparring...
but you have to realize that by not sparring you are indeed losing some of your abilities... maybe a minute part each day, but a part none the less.... Of course if you are at a really high level, you could very possibly go a long time and still not have it effect your ability to overcome a challenging opponent. I would suggest working on other aspects of your conditioning though to increase your odds of success...
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Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 2:15 pm

January 20th, 2010, 9:21 pm #3

When I posted below, I wasn't stating that I feel you shouldn't spar. I think some people perceived it that way. Again, I have sparred more times than I can count, and have done so many ways.

I was simply asking if you felt that if you didn't spar on a regular basis, whether or not you would have success in a self-defense situation.

So, I'll rephrase for those who either a) didn't understand, b) didn't pay attention, or c) didn't care.

Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense?

After all, you can't spar your entire life. Just curious!
BULLSHI VICK
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

January 20th, 2010, 9:40 pm #4

So are you saying you should spar forever? Or, are you on the other side of the fence saying that you don't need to spar?

If so, I would be honored to hear your input on this.

Thank-you,

Michael Miller, CKF
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

January 20th, 2010, 9:58 pm #5

when you stop sparring, you will lose an edge on your timing, recognition, etc..

now thats not to say that some people are not better off stopping sparring...
Its the whole law of diminishing return.... or return on investment.... or a combination of those..
if you are at a higher risk of being injured by sparring then you are of being attacked in the street, then by all means stop sparring... If you have a greater risk of a worse injury from sparring then what you might face in the streets then by all means stop sparring...
but you have to realize that by not sparring you are indeed losing some of your abilities... maybe a minute part each day, but a part none the less.... Of course if you are at a really high level, you could very possibly go a long time and still not have it effect your ability to overcome a challenging opponent. I would suggest working on other aspects of your conditioning though to increase your odds of success...
I appreciate such a respectful, honest answer. I always enjoy your input.

Salute,

Michael Miller, CKF
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Joined: January 16th, 2010, 11:59 pm

January 21st, 2010, 12:15 am #6

When I posted below, I wasn't stating that I feel you shouldn't spar. I think some people perceived it that way. Again, I have sparred more times than I can count, and have done so many ways.

I was simply asking if you felt that if you didn't spar on a regular basis, whether or not you would have success in a self-defense situation.

So, I'll rephrase for those who either a) didn't understand, b) didn't pay attention, or c) didn't care.

Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense?

After all, you can't spar your entire life. Just curious!
Well of course as we age we have to be careful as to what we inflict on our bodies. For me, I think it's a matter of adjusting to just how hard we spar as we get older. If we spar on a regular basis then our bodies will be used to being struck so chances are we will still be injured now & then when we spar but not as much as the person who never spars.


For example I play guitar & I know this has nothing to do with sparring but say for instance I play on a regular basis then my figer tips will be used to using the strings & moving up & down the fretboard as well as my timing will also be correct with my pick hand. If I dont play on a regular basis this will not be the case.

Same thing goes with sparring. If I'm not sparring on a regular basis my timing will be off & on the street where it really counts more than likely I'm going to be in trouble so I think it's important to spar so we know what it's like to give & get. This is just my opinion.
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

January 21st, 2010, 4:15 am #7

When I posted below, I wasn't stating that I feel you shouldn't spar. I think some people perceived it that way. Again, I have sparred more times than I can count, and have done so many ways.

I was simply asking if you felt that if you didn't spar on a regular basis, whether or not you would have success in a self-defense situation.

So, I'll rephrase for those who either a) didn't understand, b) didn't pay attention, or c) didn't care.

Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense?

After all, you can't spar your entire life. Just curious!
If a student learning a martial art never spars then they are missing out on a great training method.

If a student learning a martial art spars all the time but does not pay enough attention to correctly applying the principles of their system they will fail to gain the full benefit of the system even if they become great fighters.

If a student learning a martial art concentrates on being the best of the best in full contact "ring" fights. They will probably be OK in a not so lethal fight... on account of the following:

1. Good Conditioning
2. Good Pain Tolerence
3. Good Timing
4. Good fighting spirit
5.
6.

However, regardless of the silly idea that only important people are ever killed... Crime does not always care what your social status is, you could be just a school teacher, a 12 year old kid, a farmer, a bum, a prostitute, a convict, some Kenpo teacher in Africa... it does not matter how unimportant you are!!!! LET ME SAY IT AGAIN: IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW IMPORTANT YOU ARE! Criminals don't give a rat's arse about your social status, in fact being of low status may make you a better target in their minds.

That said "People SHOULD make an effort to prepare for lethal situations and martial arts DOES INCLUDE taking into account a silenced pistol or sniper fire or IEDs or Highjackers, or an angry spouse with sissors in her hand... Now when that kind of SHIZNIT happens and it may only happen one or two times in your life or if your lucky maybe you will live your entire life without ever finding yourself in a dangerous situation but truth be told it happens more often then people with the head in the clouds mentality want you to think.

That is why you work on it, that is why your train for it, thats why your focus should not be just on how to score points or knock out an opponent, it should include how to tie a person up, how to use cover, how to protect a person who cant defend themselves, how to shoot... study of a martial art for the purpose of survival DOES involve more then just the kind of AVG stuff that is being taught to win plastic.

Take it a step further some of us do jobs that require putting our arses on the line so F the instuctor who tells me hey you don't need to learn that stuff, your not important enough to be killed!!!! Dude if you think that way, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU TEACHING!
Last edited by kenposoldier01 on January 21st, 2010, 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 5th, 2008, 1:18 am

January 21st, 2010, 2:06 pm #8

When I posted below, I wasn't stating that I feel you shouldn't spar. I think some people perceived it that way. Again, I have sparred more times than I can count, and have done so many ways.

I was simply asking if you felt that if you didn't spar on a regular basis, whether or not you would have success in a self-defense situation.

So, I'll rephrase for those who either a) didn't understand, b) didn't pay attention, or c) didn't care.

Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense?

After all, you can't spar your entire life. Just curious!
"Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense? After all, you can't spar your entire life."

This is only my opinion, but I would say, yes, quitting sparring completely would hurt you for street self-defense because sparring teaches you to respond to stress, how to control your breathing, and how to selectively hit targets when someone is trying to take your head off. One of the best examples of someone who is around age 60 who still gets out there and fights full-contact with his black belts is my former kung-fu teacher (and still great friend):

http://www.youtube.com/user/pcbd?featur ... YKenEpaBSI
http://www.youtube.com/user/pcbd?featur ... HCAwQobk7Q

Kenpo's self-defense techniques combined with consistent sparring training is the best mix in my opinion.

Jamie Seabrook
CKF Canada
www.jamieseabrook.com
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

January 21st, 2010, 3:59 pm #9

If a student learning a martial art never spars then they are missing out on a great training method.

If a student learning a martial art spars all the time but does not pay enough attention to correctly applying the principles of their system they will fail to gain the full benefit of the system even if they become great fighters.

If a student learning a martial art concentrates on being the best of the best in full contact "ring" fights. They will probably be OK in a not so lethal fight... on account of the following:

1. Good Conditioning
2. Good Pain Tolerence
3. Good Timing
4. Good fighting spirit
5.
6.

However, regardless of the silly idea that only important people are ever killed... Crime does not always care what your social status is, you could be just a school teacher, a 12 year old kid, a farmer, a bum, a prostitute, a convict, some Kenpo teacher in Africa... it does not matter how unimportant you are!!!! LET ME SAY IT AGAIN: IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW IMPORTANT YOU ARE! Criminals don't give a rat's arse about your social status, in fact being of low status may make you a better target in their minds.

That said "People SHOULD make an effort to prepare for lethal situations and martial arts DOES INCLUDE taking into account a silenced pistol or sniper fire or IEDs or Highjackers, or an angry spouse with sissors in her hand... Now when that kind of SHIZNIT happens and it may only happen one or two times in your life or if your lucky maybe you will live your entire life without ever finding yourself in a dangerous situation but truth be told it happens more often then people with the head in the clouds mentality want you to think.

That is why you work on it, that is why your train for it, thats why your focus should not be just on how to score points or knock out an opponent, it should include how to tie a person up, how to use cover, how to protect a person who cant defend themselves, how to shoot... study of a martial art for the purpose of survival DOES involve more then just the kind of AVG stuff that is being taught to win plastic.

Take it a step further some of us do jobs that require putting our arses on the line so F the instuctor who tells me hey you don't need to learn that stuff, your not important enough to be killed!!!! Dude if you think that way, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU TEACHING!
Sami,

Excellent response.

"If a student learning a martial art never spars then they are missing out on a great training method."

I agree completely. You MUST spar for sure--especially going up the ranks, and also once you have obtained black belt. My main question was, how important is it in your later years of lets say 5th black and up.

"If a student learning a martial art spars all the time but does not pay enough attention to correctly applying the principles of their system they will fail to gain the full benefit of the system even if they become great fighters."

Again, I am in full agreement.


"If a student learning a martial art concentrates on being the best of the best in full contact "ring" fights. They will probably be OK in a not so lethal fight... on account of the following:

1. Good Conditioning
2. Good Pain Tolerence
3. Good Timing
4. Good fighting spirit
5.
6."

For five and six I would add good technical ability (assuming he has it) and good distance control. You are correct though ("not so lethal fight").

"However, regardless of the silly idea that only important people are ever killed... Crime does not always care what your social status is, you could be just a school teacher, a 12 year old kid, a farmer, a bum, a prostitute, a convict, some Kenpo teacher in Africa... it does not matter how unimportant you are!!!! LET ME SAY IT AGAIN: IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW IMPORTANT YOU ARE! Criminals don't give a rat's arse about your social status, in fact being of low status may make you a better target in their minds."

You are totally correct. I couldn't believe that asinine statement Amen made. It shows how little he knows about the awareness of criminal minds.

"That said "People SHOULD make an effort to prepare for lethal situations and martial arts DOES INCLUDE taking into account a silenced pistol or sniper fire or IEDs or Highjackers, or an angry spouse with sissors in her hand... Now when that kind of SHIZNIT happens and it may only happen one or two times in your life or if your lucky maybe you will live your entire life without ever finding yourself in a dangerous situation but truth be told it happens more often then people with the head in the clouds mentality want you to think."

Absolutely. Again, great stuff.

"so F the instuctor who tells me hey you don't need to learn that stuff, your not important enough to be killed!!!! Dude if you think that way, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU TEACHING!"

Very good, bro. That's why I love Mr. Pick.

Michael Miller, CKF

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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:36 pm

January 21st, 2010, 6:05 pm #10

When I posted below, I wasn't stating that I feel you shouldn't spar. I think some people perceived it that way. Again, I have sparred more times than I can count, and have done so many ways.

I was simply asking if you felt that if you didn't spar on a regular basis, whether or not you would have success in a self-defense situation.

So, I'll rephrase for those who either a) didn't understand, b) didn't pay attention, or c) didn't care.

Let's just say you have sparred for a long time, but decided to give it up due to either a) age, b) injuries, or c) just plain sick of it. Do you feel that quitting sparring will hurt you for street self-defense?

After all, you can't spar your entire life. Just curious!
I guess it depends on one's definition. If we are talking about "Point/Tag Sparring" then I would say that it is not at all essential for one's training and in fact could get one hurt if one were used to stopping after "scoring" rather than following through.

If we're talking about free-sparring, Kakadamashi, grappling/randori, kickboxing or MMA stuff, then it's more useful and a great way to condition oneself. Mas Oyama, Choki Motobu, Helio Gracie, Morihei Ueshiba, Jigoro Kano and Gichin Funakoshi continued to free-spar until they were old for instance. (I do not know about Ed Parker like you mentioned earlier).

Then there is scenario training, where one tries to defend and counter against specific types of attacks. This can be done with either preset techniques or in a very freestyle type of method.

I would think that some form of freestyle training should be kept up throughout one's lifetime just to keep sharp if nothing else.


Dan Weston
2nd Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop
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