Joined: November 25th, 2004, 3:22 am

December 7th, 2010, 7:27 pm #11

Something Clark said below sparked my interest. Thank you, Clark.

I would like to know how you Kenpoists view sparring. I've noticed that many tend to try the self-defense tech. during sparring. It seems that Clark is on that line of thinking, but I'm not sure. Nothing against Clark, of course, but that is not the way I think.

Sparring and techniques, in my view, are totally different animals. Also, totally different mindsets. Techniques were created in our system as case studies of motion. Yes, you are learning some ways to protect yourself on the street, but to think that you are going to pull them off in sparring (especially against a good fighter) is crazy.

I come from a boxing background. I love boxing. When I spar, I favor my hands and I keep my hands up, elbows in, chin tucked (not too much, of course)and shoulders relaxed. I use a lot of head movement, body movement and foot movement - as well as feints. I also alter the essence of my movement and use a lot of set ups.

I'm not into the Kenpo sparring. Sorry guys. Since I come from a full contact background, I've found that a lot of the ways Kenpo people are taught sparring (B1a and so on) won't work very well against a skilled full-contact fighter. It will work well in regular martial arts tournaments, but in full-contact (like MMA) it wouldn't do well, in my opinion.

Since Kenpo was designed for street, it's quite logical that it would have some glitches for sport. Wouldn't you agree?

I still feel, however, that if you have strong basics (from constant practice), and great conditioning (along with humility and strong will) you will do well in sport and street.

Michael Miller
What makes B1-A and B1-B ineffective?
Sean
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

December 7th, 2010, 8:53 pm #12

From a boxing/kickboxing perspective - not a smart thing to do in my view. Have you ever sparred a good boxer? If so, did you try to pull those off? Do you think you could pull those off on Joe Lewis? What about Bill Wallace? What about Randy Couture?

Then you have to look at if you did or could pull those off, were they effective. I don't think they would be against a pro fighter.

I like a lot of the Kenpo freestyle stuff, but I feel they are good for attacking on the street (meaning that you know you have to attack first so it's good to go from freestyle to technique mode with strong basics. Rather than waiting for the attacker to attack and you become reactive instead of proactive).

Proactive is the key.
Last edited by millhouse23 on December 8th, 2010, 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 9th, 2003, 1:19 pm

December 8th, 2010, 4:11 am #13

Thanks for your reply. I'm not taking anything away from the great Kenpo fighters such as Mr. Muhammad and many others. There are many great Kenpoists who have had awesome success in tournaments. I'm talking complete full contact - not point oriented stuff.

I am talking about let's say a Kenpo black belt spars against an MMA fighter, a boxer, a kickboxer, and for fun, another Kenpo black belt.

In my view, the only person the Kenpo black belt would do well against (in this sport context) would be the other Kenpo black belt (if he spars the way most Kenpo people spar).

Just my opinion.

"Parker said that there was only one man who could actualize Kenpo both in Street and in tournament, and that man was Steve Sanders muhammad, now Sijo Muhammad."


I've heard he said the same thing about Frank Trejo.


Oh! Full contact huh? Well unfortunately a BKF point fighter had the record for the fastest loss in UFC. Ray Wizard lost to Pat Smith in like 20seconds. Ray went in with a Back knuckle and Pat put him in a reverse neck lock (Galoteen) and choked him out. Ray was a No#1 point fighter at the time and had no ground fighting experience. I get your point, but I think this is a failed topic, cause Parker Kenpo doesn't have Ground Fighting, and you can't talk seriously about Full contact without it. Now Mr. Muhammad has come up with movements and concepts that put power into punching. Not the slapping movements of traditional Kenpo. He has some pretty great points on Actualizing Kenpo. www.stevemuhammad.org . Check some of his stuff out and let me know what you think. I would be very interested in knowing more about whoever has taken Kenpo in a similar direction.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

December 8th, 2010, 6:37 am #14

Amen..

Slapping is a highly effective form of hitting when you can generate speed and power from the orbits. It can easily take a man down and hurt him bad.. Of course this is all predicated upon being able to whip the orbits.

And as far as you saying that traditional kenpo is "slapping motions". What in the hell manual are you reading? Yes you can use slapping in kenpo but that is because you open your hands. It is like a form of extension but it is not the techniques as written.

How is a hammerfist, knife hane, eagles beak, back fist, elbow, ridge hand, palm strike, reverse punch, a slap?? I just don't get you sometimes...
Last edited by kenpo58 on December 8th, 2010, 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

December 8th, 2010, 4:27 pm #15

Oh! Full contact huh? Well unfortunately a BKF point fighter had the record for the fastest loss in UFC. Ray Wizard lost to Pat Smith in like 20seconds. Ray went in with a Back knuckle and Pat put him in a reverse neck lock (Galoteen) and choked him out. Ray was a No#1 point fighter at the time and had no ground fighting experience. I get your point, but I think this is a failed topic, cause Parker Kenpo doesn't have Ground Fighting, and you can't talk seriously about Full contact without it. Now Mr. Muhammad has come up with movements and concepts that put power into punching. Not the slapping movements of traditional Kenpo. He has some pretty great points on Actualizing Kenpo. www.stevemuhammad.org . Check some of his stuff out and let me know what you think. I would be very interested in knowing more about whoever has taken Kenpo in a similar direction.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
"cause Parker Kenpo doesn't have Ground Fighting, and you can't talk seriously about Full contact without it."

Huh? The Parker Kenpo I learned and know does. Look deeper. And, yes you can talk full contact without ground. It's called boxing and kickboxing.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

December 8th, 2010, 4:58 pm #16

Amen said that I was tempted to say "Tell that to Mike Tyson". I think Amen may suffer fron the tear other down syndrome to build himself up. There is a lot of talk going on with no video. I mean if he won't put up a martial arts video can't he at least show us him shooting a lion or an antelope or something, anything..
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 17th, 2007, 12:37 am

December 8th, 2010, 5:56 pm #17

Oh! Full contact huh? Well unfortunately a BKF point fighter had the record for the fastest loss in UFC. Ray Wizard lost to Pat Smith in like 20seconds. Ray went in with a Back knuckle and Pat put him in a reverse neck lock (Galoteen) and choked him out. Ray was a No#1 point fighter at the time and had no ground fighting experience. I get your point, but I think this is a failed topic, cause Parker Kenpo doesn't have Ground Fighting, and you can't talk seriously about Full contact without it. Now Mr. Muhammad has come up with movements and concepts that put power into punching. Not the slapping movements of traditional Kenpo. He has some pretty great points on Actualizing Kenpo. www.stevemuhammad.org . Check some of his stuff out and let me know what you think. I would be very interested in knowing more about whoever has taken Kenpo in a similar direction.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
Prouder! Amen, I'm surprised at you. You're from the BKF and you didn't mention their premiere fighter. As bad a** as Ray Wizard was and is, Alvin was many times better. Alvin was continuing to grow as a fighter until he was shot. Alvin entered the ring as a boxer and kickboxer and did well but only time would have told on his success. Alvin was a super bad a** and was quite dangerous.

I have seen many BKF fighters - I would even venture to say that I've seen more than you. In the late 70's and early 80's there were many awesome BKF fighters, with a few of them as dangerous or more dangerous than Alvin. I very much admired their ability.

However, along the BKF fighters, there were others who were as good. Trejo and the East LA group, some of Tracy's guys, and of course Bob Whites group. As you know, BKF teams met Bob Whites teams many times in the Finals. So, as good as the BKF was and may still be, they were certainly not or will be the end all.

Respectfully,
The Chosen One

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 28th, 2004, 1:04 am

December 9th, 2010, 1:52 am #18

Something Clark said below sparked my interest. Thank you, Clark.

I would like to know how you Kenpoists view sparring. I've noticed that many tend to try the self-defense tech. during sparring. It seems that Clark is on that line of thinking, but I'm not sure. Nothing against Clark, of course, but that is not the way I think.

Sparring and techniques, in my view, are totally different animals. Also, totally different mindsets. Techniques were created in our system as case studies of motion. Yes, you are learning some ways to protect yourself on the street, but to think that you are going to pull them off in sparring (especially against a good fighter) is crazy.

I come from a boxing background. I love boxing. When I spar, I favor my hands and I keep my hands up, elbows in, chin tucked (not too much, of course)and shoulders relaxed. I use a lot of head movement, body movement and foot movement - as well as feints. I also alter the essence of my movement and use a lot of set ups.

I'm not into the Kenpo sparring. Sorry guys. Since I come from a full contact background, I've found that a lot of the ways Kenpo people are taught sparring (B1a and so on) won't work very well against a skilled full-contact fighter. It will work well in regular martial arts tournaments, but in full-contact (like MMA) it wouldn't do well, in my opinion.

Since Kenpo was designed for street, it's quite logical that it would have some glitches for sport. Wouldn't you agree?

I still feel, however, that if you have strong basics (from constant practice), and great conditioning (along with humility and strong will) you will do well in sport and street.

Michael Miller
"Sparring and techniques, in my view, are totally different animals."


....They are different because they are designed to be used in different zones,(ranges).....

When I say I go into freestyle mode, I don't mean point sparring....

You can use parts of techniques, special natural weapons and whatever you have in your arsenal to keep those that you wish, either at range or in close for a predetermined Technique.

The problem then becomes the zones or ranges after freestlye and technique are viable or the grappling zone....

You find ways to transition from one to the other and connect them, to allow you to move in and out of range, otherwise you are going to be fighting the Boxers fight or the grapplers fight and not your own.

Sparring lets you try out strategies, I agree.....but what happens over time?

Do you really get better, fighting the same people over and over every class,or every weekend on the tournament circuit?

Or are you so familiar with fighting them over and over, that you pick up their tells, their rythm and harmonize with them, know what they are going to do ahead of time?

What happens if you take a couple of weeks off? Are you really that bad or is your timming off until you get back in the groove? What happens when you change up your timming?

I can get confidence sparring, I can get it hitting a heavy bag, I can get it doing a technique line.....

What happens when you face someone you have not faced before? Are you more Cautious or more reckless? What happens when you introduce weapons into the equation? What happens when you are fighting for your life and you have not done that before.....What makes you believe you will be successful?

The greatest fighters EVER have lost...the greatest grapplers, greatest weapons experts and so on.....

One aspect of Martial arts are not going to make you victorious......all areas have to be covered.....then fitted for your circumstances!!!!

I don't want to be knowlegeable of confidence when I fight, I want to have known what it is and how to control my fear!!!

Rich
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 9th, 2003, 1:19 pm

December 9th, 2010, 4:15 am #19

Prouder! Amen, I'm surprised at you. You're from the BKF and you didn't mention their premiere fighter. As bad a** as Ray Wizard was and is, Alvin was many times better. Alvin was continuing to grow as a fighter until he was shot. Alvin entered the ring as a boxer and kickboxer and did well but only time would have told on his success. Alvin was a super bad a** and was quite dangerous.

I have seen many BKF fighters - I would even venture to say that I've seen more than you. In the late 70's and early 80's there were many awesome BKF fighters, with a few of them as dangerous or more dangerous than Alvin. I very much admired their ability.

However, along the BKF fighters, there were others who were as good. Trejo and the East LA group, some of Tracy's guys, and of course Bob Whites group. As you know, BKF teams met Bob Whites teams many times in the Finals. So, as good as the BKF was and may still be, they were certainly not or will be the end all.

Respectfully,
The Chosen One
Ahh Alvin Prouder. This could take long. I knew Alvin well. Studied him for years. Went to see him in Hospital when he was shot. Fought him in practice hundreds of times. Love his sister. Was there all through his come back after he was shoot. I was the one who ran out in the Long Beach Arena parking lot to tell him Parker said he could fight, after other officials refused him. then I watched a true champion work his magic as he won his division with two bullets still in his head. I could go on and on about Alvin for hours. I didn't mention him because Miller said he was talking about street fighting. As great as Alvin was in the ring, he was no match for other BKF fighters like Micheal Holmes or Joe Swift in his later years. This is the tragedy of BKF. It had so so many great Fighters who slipped in and out of fighting shape. To see Joe Swift, who use to lose to Alvin repeatedly, in his 2nd come back was to see Total and complete Greatness. I was fortunate to have him teach his last days at my 109 school. Joe Swift had Arms like a tree. He lifted weights and he was tall, big, and super strong. He perfected his kicks and ALWAYS HAD to hold back from hurting all his opponents in the ring. Though he and Alvin never met in the ring when he became active again. I can say this since I fought both of them, Joe Swift pound for pound after his come back in the 1990's, had moved himself to championship level and beyond. It was only that he, like Holmes were really effected by BKF's notorious & sometimes deadly physical politics.








www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 9th, 2003, 1:19 pm

December 9th, 2010, 4:39 am #20

Oh! Full contact huh? Well unfortunately a BKF point fighter had the record for the fastest loss in UFC. Ray Wizard lost to Pat Smith in like 20seconds. Ray went in with a Back knuckle and Pat put him in a reverse neck lock (Galoteen) and choked him out. Ray was a No#1 point fighter at the time and had no ground fighting experience. I get your point, but I think this is a failed topic, cause Parker Kenpo doesn't have Ground Fighting, and you can't talk seriously about Full contact without it. Now Mr. Muhammad has come up with movements and concepts that put power into punching. Not the slapping movements of traditional Kenpo. He has some pretty great points on Actualizing Kenpo. www.stevemuhammad.org . Check some of his stuff out and let me know what you think. I would be very interested in knowing more about whoever has taken Kenpo in a similar direction.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
In BKF there was this click. The click was a small group of BKF Champions. Joe Swift like so many wanted to be in this click. Alvin was a charter member and totally respected leader inside this click. Joe Swift being in the same division just could not beat Alvin in the tournaments. Well BKF politics of course came and got Joe and others and Joe disappeared for like five years. During that time Alvin was shot. One day Joe just appeared at my school and said he had some few students and asked if he could teach them on Saturdays. I hardly remembered him. But when I saw him teaching I was taken back. The man knew so everything about Point Fighting. His classes became a meeting place for top fighters from all around. And note this. Bob White's best fighters came to Joe's Saturday class for instructions. In fact several of Bob White's guys either came to train at BKF-109 school in Watts, or had BKF fighters practicing at Mr. White's school.
When Joe came back he had little interest in tournament fighting, yet he manitained friendships with those in the click, including Ray Wizard, Berry Gordon, Leo Creer and others. He only fought one or two major events, one of them was in Las Vegas against Berry Gordon. Berry Gordon's Father for the first time traveled all the way to Las Vegas to see his son fight. Berry was at that time one of the best if not the best point fighter, calling himself ""The Man, The Myth, And the Legend"" He had these words on the back of his Gi, so you see how he was... Anyway he and Joe traveled together to Las Vegas, and on the trip Berry told Joe if they meet in the finals, that Joe should let him win because his Father would be there. And of course they would split the money. Joe said "No problem Buddy" BKF guys often did this as they usually beat everyone and had to face each other in the finals at mostly every tournament. But, come the Grand Champion Match, Joe went all out and bet Berry like a baby five to zero. Berry was really caught off guard and it showed in the ring. Joe got revenge for some political deed from the past. I know the story well because Joe had to ride back to L.A. in my car, cause Berry refused to let him ride with anyone in the click. Sorry for the long post, but a great story.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
Quote
Like
Share