Some Thoughts From Advanced Class

Some Thoughts From Advanced Class

Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

September 19th, 2009, 3:00 pm #1

Robert expounded on the concept of iteration, which was covered in Wed night's Advanced Class. Thought it was pretty clear and concise so thought I'd share:

Basically, it's from structuralist analyses of how time works in narratives. To explain that, two books are involved: Vladimir Propp, "Morphology of the Folk Tale," and Gerard Genette, "Narrative Discourse: An Essay on Method."

The book by Propp is the one we talked about: basically, he looked at a bunch of Russian folks tales, picked out recurrent characters and situations, and talked about how new tales got generated. So for example, there's only about seven different characters to play with (hero, helper, bad guy, etc.), and a few situations--but as with Legos or the basics of language or the basics of kenpo, you can generate a whole lot of, "new," stories from ma limited deck of choices. This is especially true, because you can moosh characters together (think of leprechauns--who are often both, "helpers," and, "bad guys") and you got it.

In other words, what Propp did is a lot like what I think Parker did--look at a range of martial arts, and (with some fudging) pull out recurrent, "characters," and, "situations," then examine how to combine/recombine. What Propp DIDN'T do, though, was something added: he didn't talk about WHY certain combinations/recombinations did NOT happen, look at where the bits and pieces came from in the first place, or examine why particular audiences latched on to particular kinds of stories...that stuff, which I think kenpo DOES do, is outside a strict structuralist analysis.

Just by the way, this is one of the reasons I don't really care for the "category completion," language. It suggests that the categories are just kinda completing themselves, and are free-floating, without relation to the world.

Anyway, the Genette book's about time in novels and stories. here's basically what it says:

1) You need to separate "narrative time," (the time it takes to tell a story) from "story time," (the time it takes events to happen in reality).

2) Once you do this, three possibilities appear: NT can be greater than ST, NT can be less than ST, or they can be equal. This is how novels create, "time:" you take a long time to narrate a single second, and time seems to stretch out; you take a short time to narrate a long series of events, and time seems to speed up; you take about the time to tell that it takes things to happen, and you get this sort of, "realistic," time. (About the only narrative that does this, really, is the old movie, "High Noon," which is something like a 86-minute movie about events that take 86 minutes.

3) You can also flash back, flash forward, or pause--just like with a DVR, really. I think I maybe added a concept this Genette didn't seem to think of--to do this stuff, you need a, "now," or, "zero time," established, which is why so many movies begin with establishing shots that not only tell you WHERE you are, but WHEN--you need the reference point. In fancy terms, the skips back in time are called, "analepses," forwards are called "prolepses," and the pauses--the places in stories where time seems to stop--are called, "ellipses," which you see in books as those three dots.

4) OK, finally--iteration. Narratives can repeat the same moment or event or whatever, with or without variations. "Rashomon," does this, going obsessively over and over the same moment in time...you get a longer text, but do you really move in time?

Time travel movies are good ways to see this stuff, because they pretty much have to go right down Genette's list of tricks to work--you establish a, "now," you go back and forth around it, you often show time-travel as a, "fast-forwarding," etc.

Again, though, what Genette doesn't do is talk about WHY, or how time in stories (any kind of time) relates to the outside world, or anything outside books.

So in my view, the connection to kenpo's sort of screamingly obvious, starting with the breakdown of martial arts into a limited number of, "characters," and, "situations," then generating new stuff by shuffling the deck. Similarly, the stuff you were laying out on Wednesday is kind of like an analysis of time in techniques...either the kenpo system (at a lower level) or a "superconscious," mind sort of skates along on the surface of threatening events, isolating the bits and pieces of what's going on as they develop, then either a) running a counter-program (again, at a more basic level...done it myself of course, standing there still running Five Swords after the guy fell down, like a machine gun with a dead gunner's fist holding the trigger down), or b) working out of internalized knowledge of the system and its rules to generate something tailored to the moment.

I also think, at this point, that the, "Master Key," idea is really all about teaching three things: a) communicating the, "kernels," of the whole system, the seeds from which you grow the rest; b) providing a, "ground" (kind of like a zero time) against which you can recognize variations--I think that claiming, "it's all the same," is a mistake, because that doesn't take into account the fact that the attacks are different, as may very well be the attacker's responses; c) teaching, as you said, how to think about generating your own, "new," stuff.

Back to the mats,

Angela

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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

September 19th, 2009, 3:04 pm #2

Larry's 2 cents on Robert's interpretation of what he covered:

Robert, I like your insight into the understanding how and why I teach in these terms you laid out. I've spent my life narrowing down the reasons things are the way they are but give these reasons purpose in one's life beyond just knowing them.

As we have discussed, Kenpo is truly a paradigm to life and what knowledge you glean from Kenpo is to glean from and carry over into your life.

Just thought I'd share since I get alot of questions from people on the kinds of things we cover on Wed nights. This was discussed between the three of us so I had permission to post in their words.

A look on the inside so to speak.

Hope you all enjoyed it.

Back to the mats,

Angela
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

September 19th, 2009, 3:20 pm #3

This is one of the reasons. Kenpo, Parker or Tatum style is considered the intellectual art...To bad really...

It is hard enough to learn the art as it is, and then throw in RMs (if that is Robert) Guano...IMHO

It is interesting for sure, but not on/in the mat/ring etc...

Try 2 minute rounds and rest for one then do it again for 5 times, that will teach you the essence of it, IMHO...

Repetition, is the key always has been.

I know the H-D-W thing, plus "time" is a biggie, but "rote" is the way. IMHO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning

I am being as humble as I can

Regards,
Gary
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

September 19th, 2009, 3:25 pm #4

And this is just as hard for me to say as anyone,

It's not always about the HULK SMASH aspect. If you truly take any art into your life, it carries over into other areas of it (i.e., work, play, sports, relationships, etc.).

At least that's MY understanding/interpretation of it.

Like I said, people ask, it was written up in some notes and I put it out there. Wasn't assuming it was for everyone and knew it wouldn't be your cup of tea, Gary. Maybe next time I'll preface it with, "Not that you'd be interested, Gary, but to those of you who've asked before..."

Better?

Back to the mats,

Angela
Last edited by kenpoangel on September 19th, 2009, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

September 19th, 2009, 3:37 pm #5

I understand what you are mentioning about the soft side vs the hard side. Been an on going/discussion for years and years. Essence of the art is not SD some say...Thanks Angela for the lesson.

But if that is the case then Kosho is where it is, not EPS art. Never has been, like the original as it started out. Kenpo EPS was from Chow...Not the sharpest pencil in the pack...

So now the intellectual start on it, go way beyond the norm and call it advanced...It should all be in one package and not taught at the BB level...IMHO.

Forms and techs are all well and good, but the other is as important also...

I am not good enough to bring forth the "chi" of lighting bolts and electric from my fingers. Energy I have is different.

Maybe I should have made that clear at first.

Better?

Regards,
Gary

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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

September 19th, 2009, 3:50 pm #6

We are making head way on this one...I will hope others chime in Angela, it is a good discussion, one I will sit back and read, from now on...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090919/ap_ ... le_defense

I truly would like to see some others who are not high ranked discuss it, and see if it is something they are interested in...

Notice how others in the past have gone the intellectual path. Time and travel or Gods hand, in the message.

LT new book is about that message, now Robert is bringing it up to 21st century thinking...Interesting for sure.

Mitose book that was just published by his Son Thomas is a perfect example of where I am coming from... Spirt and mind etc...

Regards,
Gary
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

September 19th, 2009, 3:50 pm #7

I understand what you are mentioning about the soft side vs the hard side. Been an on going/discussion for years and years. Essence of the art is not SD some say...Thanks Angela for the lesson.

But if that is the case then Kosho is where it is, not EPS art. Never has been, like the original as it started out. Kenpo EPS was from Chow...Not the sharpest pencil in the pack...

So now the intellectual start on it, go way beyond the norm and call it advanced...It should all be in one package and not taught at the BB level...IMHO.

Forms and techs are all well and good, but the other is as important also...

I am not good enough to bring forth the "chi" of lighting bolts and electric from my fingers. Energy I have is different.

Maybe I should have made that clear at first.

Better?

Regards,
Gary
<< I am not good enough to bring forth the "chi" of lighting bolts and electric from my fingers. Energy I have is different. >>

Well...at least we didn't have to wait a month this time did we?

Oh and btw, thanks for the humble apology to Larry. He REALLY appreciated it.

Back to the mats,

Angela

p.s.
I know in response to this you'll dig up more and more pieces of gossip in an effort to derail information that HONEST folks have asked for.

It reminds me of a 2yr old who's mommy isn't paying attention to him because she had the audacity to talk to grown-ups while it was in the same room. Sad really. Are we regressing in age?
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

September 19th, 2009, 3:54 pm #8

All things are cyclic as we know in the arts.
So, I think my response was ok.

I am not sure about humble apology Angela. Were you on the line?

I now will allow this to go on, and not mention anymore, OK...

Regards,
Gary
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

September 19th, 2009, 3:55 pm #9

We are making head way on this one...I will hope others chime in Angela, it is a good discussion, one I will sit back and read, from now on...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090919/ap_ ... le_defense

I truly would like to see some others who are not high ranked discuss it, and see if it is something they are interested in...

Notice how others in the past have gone the intellectual path. Time and travel or Gods hand, in the message.

LT new book is about that message, now Robert is bringing it up to 21st century thinking...Interesting for sure.

Mitose book that was just published by his Son Thomas is a perfect example of where I am coming from... Spirt and mind etc...

Regards,
Gary
If you were REALLY interested in what OTHERS thought on this topic, you would have waited for the type print dry before you started with your obnoxious behavior and link posting.

If you were REALLY interested in what anyone else had to say other than a higher ranking belt or non-senior, you would have let the print type dry and allowed them to post.

But no. You went right in with your usual hijinks and derailings all under the guise of "innocence" and interest of "real discussion".

Have a good one, Gary. There really is nothing else to say to you. So much for trying to "get you". There is no "getting you"...just more head shaking out of sheer pity that you can't just simply stop.

Back to the mats,

Angela
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

September 19th, 2009, 3:58 pm #10

Get me, LOL, OK... Again, no mas!

Let the others join in... I guess you figure I should now delete, like others have done...Sorry that is up to the mods.


Ps:
Saturday is usually a slow one, the Seminar going on in NO CA will be where most of the big guns will be.

Hope Cliff will say something.

PPS:
Links are good to read. It was in the conversation. Sort of a foot note thing...
You have trouble with that, always have. Guess you are not into reference???

Regards,
Gary
Last edited by BGile on September 19th, 2009, 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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