Reply to Troy

Joined: 2:29 AM - May 07, 2009

7:35 AM - Nov 27, 2011 #1

You say it makes sense but is not needed, you are wrong, the proof that it is needed is in those many Kenpo clips all over the net of Kenpoists many of them high ranking black belts moving in ways that would get them ripped apart if the people they were working the technique on would stop acting like a statue. You can see it in the lack of understanding when it comes to what you can use Delayed Sword on, some think you can use it just fine versus a punch as you do a grab and that is caused by not understanding what a catalyst is and what can happen when you fail to control the attackers intentional and unintentional actions.


The reason for Even-if versus what if should be obvious, in fact you state it several times in your post your taking away the variables. If you apply your Kenpo well thats what happens, the techniques are giving you the tools you need to do just that, but alas people do not want to work over and over on self defense techniques nah lets work this kali drill, boxing drill, BJJ escape, systema drill or whatever to fill the gap in the Kenpo system


Why would they bother when they have no confidence in the techniques. After all the techniques are to complete a category of motion or to teach a bunch of basics put together in a completely random and ill thought out manner or wait that only applies to the techniques that the Kenpoist cannot do well, those dang overly complex hard ones that require a miracle to pull off That is after all the kind of crap people say about the techniques. When are they going to realize how far off they are?

The sad truth is they NEVER will because when they do not understand something, they just turn to some other method, mix and match and presto they think that now with a smattering of this and that they have covered that gap in Kenpo. Really they are free to do whatever they want, the ones that really want to learn will keep an open mind and find the teachers that can do more than talk the talk.


I do not understand why you think that the progression of push defenses from Parting Wings to Encounter with Danger should be dictated by the Environment alone, as if the energy of the push does not get a say in it lol. What I am getting from what your saying is that the push attack stays exactly the same (same force etc) and based on your surroundings sometimes you just feel like falling on your back?


As for ARMMing it is made up of words which Mr. Parker used to explain the art you can find them in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo. To say position recognition is followed by do the technique is a true over simplification however I know what you mean because I have experience in the system but will new students get it or does it leave out things that happen when you do not control HWD zones because you failed to time it right (regulate.)


Will they be aware of setting up a negative orbit or will it knock some of their teeth out because they did not pay attention (monitor) because they thought all they needed to do was just do the technique. If they encounter targets of opportunity or targets being covered can they modify or will they be too busy just doing the technique lol

I wish you the best of luck in your training, I am certain that you will not change what you do based on some strangers post on a Kenpo Forum, but maybe something we discuss may turn a light bulb on for some third party reader, so it was worth typing this

I had a great Thanksgiving training with Clyde and I am heading back to base Sunday, I will try to make it back up here again during X-mas if I can.
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Joined: 6:38 PM - Mar 10, 2005

6:31 PM - Nov 27, 2011 #2

Environment dictates everything. Simple as that. I didn't say other things shouldn't be considered, like the type of push you mentioned, but it is only after environment is considered. The premise of American Kenpo is that of multiple attackers, therefore it follows that environment is what dictates the response. If you counter an extremely strong push with Encounter from Danger and you failed to notice that your attacker has 3 friends, well good luck with that. You will continually have to respond to your attackers' 'catalysts', simply because you failed to consider the environment. That is poor strategy. You should have responded to the position of your attackers and moved according to the environmental considerations. There is already a technique for that, and you could have responded quickly and easily if you had trained the transitional movements to get to a better position. The positions are finite and controllable. The 'catalysts' of your attacker are not.

You have not understood what I discussed, but that is okay, it is a journey. That is shown by this statement of yours, "If they encounter targets of opportunity or targets being covered can they modify or will they be too busy just doing the technique lol."
I answered that question in terms of position recognition and perceptual speed training. Counters are merely a matter of your skill with the perceptual speed of recognizing the position and responding with a new technique. It isn't complicated and can be systematically trained and maintained for many years. In fact it might be the only skill set that can be maintained into old age and might therefore might be the most valuable. Because the positions are finite and limited the responses can be trained to be 'spontaneous'.

Bringing up what Kenpo looks like on the internet has nothing to do with the discussion. It doesn't prove anything. It is the equivalent of me saying John Wooden didn't know what he was doing at all, have you seen them kids playing ball down at the park? They have no fundamentals! It has nothing to do with which training methodology is better. For all we know, they aren't doing either of our methods. So what's the point of bringing them up.

Keep doing what you are doing though, I'm sure you are learning a lot. At some point down the line though, you will synthesize the process and categorize or chunk the responses to match the variables (if you want to be consistently successful). It is already done for you though, so I hope you don't try to reinvent the wheel in the process.

In short everything you are trying to account for with these ideas is already done in a much simpler and applicable way. All of the catalyst and AARMing business is chunked into the technique. It's why there are techniques. And those techniques are based on the environment.

To bring up your Delayed Sword scenario...You don't step back because he forces you back, you step back because the environment allows you to. Anyone other explanation is secondary, because if you couldn't step back, whether forced or not, you wouldn't. After acceptance of the situation you are in, environment rules everything. I don't understand why you are arguing such an obvious point.


Have fun training and after your next lesson with Clyde come back on here and share some stuff. I enjoy the discussions they push me to clarify my methods. Have a good Holiday.

Troy


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Joined: 2:29 AM - May 07, 2009

2:16 AM - Nov 30, 2011 #3

TROY: Environment dictates everything. Simple as that. I didn't say other things shouldn't be considered, like the type of push you mentioned, but it is only after environment is considered.

SAM: Why should you consider the push at all if Environment really dictates everything?

TROY: The premise of American Kenpo is that of multiple attackers, therefore it follows that environment is what dictates the response. If you counter an extremely strong push with Encounter from Danger and you failed to notice that your attacker has 3 friends, well good luck with that. You will continually have to respond to your attackers' 'catalysts', simply because you failed to consider the environment. That is poor strategy.


SAM: I disagree with you because the technique Encounter with Danger has the attack landing and making you fall, you do not really decide to fall the push does that, maybe for some rare situations you may want to go down but even if you could clearly tell that 20 other potential enemies were waiting to stomp you to death, you still have to face the possibility that you may be pushed to the ground thus the technique Encounter with Danger. This idea that you have about always being so aware of your environment is a worthwhile method of prevention but you still have to train to deal with levels of catalysts that can get past layers of your perceptual awareness. Even hyper-vigilant warriors who have spent years behind enemy lines and have seen more violence then even I can conjure up can still be taken by surprise, if you only train for situations where people only attempt to attack, when do you train to deal with the actual engagement.

TROY: You should have responded to the position of your attackers and moved according to the environmental considerations. There is already a technique for that, and you could have responded quickly and easily if you had trained the transitional movements to get to a better position. The positions are finite and controllable. The 'catalysts' of your attacker are not.

SAM: If my spider-sense was tingling to warn me of all impending danger, if I could see through the walls of a building where a group may wait in ambush, if the environment always favored me by allowing for easy maneuver and if I was never bound by occupation, duty or ethics to go into unfriendly or unfamiliar terrain to deal with enemies on their turf, sure I could agree that it would be easy to just evade or move to superior positions anytime I was faced with an immediate threat to my safety but you know that is just not realistic for me. I will commend you for having such skill but with my clumsy skill I am often stuck dealing with both a challenging environment and the initial catalyst. Even if I can tell the people around me are dangerous, I am often stuck waiting for them to make the first move before I can legally take any actions and I am not obliged to just fly to the nearest exit or move to the most advantageous point to take them apart before I am engaged. If I can I will move to the most advantageous position that is a no brainer.

TROY: Bringing up what Kenpo looks like on the internet has nothing to do with the discussion. It doesn't prove anything. It is the equivalent of me saying John Wooden didn't know what he was doing at all, have you seen them kids playing ball down at the park? They have no fundamentals! It has nothing to do with which training methodology is better. For all we know, they aren't doing either of our methods. So what's the point of bringing them up.


SAM: The point of bringing it up was to remind you that even if your ideas work for you and your students, lots of other people in Kenpo may need to look at it differently to improve. So this attitude of how unnecessary it is to explain Kenpo using terms that you do not use is in fact unnecessary, think of it as similar to how you take ideas and drills from the FMAs to explain your methods but we stay within the system.

TROY: Keep doing what you are doing though; I'm sure you are learning a lot. At some point down the line though, you will synthesize the process and categorize or chunk the responses to match the variables (if you want to be consistently successful). It is already done for you though, so I hope you don't try to reinvent the wheel in the process.

SAM: At last we agree, the chunking process as you put it, that deals with variables has already been done, the technique already takes away the options when you cancel HWD. Absolutely no NEED to go outside the system or fix techniques by adding some other method to them because as you said it is already done.

TROY: In short everything you are trying to account for with these ideas is already done in a much simpler and applicable way. All of the catalyst and ARMMing business is chunked into the technique. It's why there are techniques.

SAM: Yes it has been explained in other ways and those lessons have not been understood by some people, that much is obvious. So when trying facilitate expedient understanding of the system we call attention to those points often missed, such as Catalysts and Adjusting, Regulating, Monitoring and Modifying, Target availability, Preference and so on. It is not like we barrowed stuff from some other martial art, this is stuff that has always been part of American Kenpo, that is why it is so hard for some experienced people to accept, they missed some very important lessons and the proof is this reaction of opposition and to needing to mix methods to achieve what is already built into the system by the Founder.

TROY: And those techniques are based on the environment. To bring up your Delayed Sword scenario...You don't step back because he forces you back, you step back because the environment allows you to. Anyone other explanation is secondary, because if you couldn't step back, whether forced or not, you wouldn't. After acceptance of the situation you are in, environment rules everything. I don't understand why you are arguing such an obvious point.

SAM: I am not arguing the step back, what I said about Delayed Sword is about nah on second thought, I will skip the rehashing of it I will just agree with you, if you cannot step back you cannot step back but everyone knows that high level Kenpoist can pass through the matrix especially if it is made of quartz or gold ; )

TROY: Have fun training and after your next lesson with Clyde come back on here and share some stuff. I enjoy the discussions they push me to clarify my methods. Have a good Holiday.

SAM: I would post more but I am very busy these days I try to post when I can. You really should come visit Clyde and see if he really has made things overly complicated lol I also enjoy reading your take on things too.
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