Punching: on the rotation of the fist

Punching: on the rotation of the fist

Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

March 1st, 2010, 2:32 am #1

Punching: on the rotation of the fist.

The fitting concept in Kenpo seems to encourage the use of a striking point of contact that literally fits the shape of the target.
My first question is do you have any thoughts on fitting as either a good concept to adopt in the execution of strikes or do you feel it is not a worthwhile concept to adopt and Why?

Some prefer to torque the fist palm down in that Shotokan fashion and swear by it as the correct way to punch and others prefer the vertical fist in that Wing Chun fashion and feel equally strong about it as a superior way to punch. What is your take on this?

My take is that the fist should make primary contact to the target with the index and middle finger knuckles and as it passes through to the penetration point the rest of the fist will make contact but again my point of contact is the large two knuckles. That said then depending on the location and nature of the target I will rotate my fist as much as I need to, to have the two large knuckles as my point of contact. So in the case of the Xiphoid process as the target I will torque my fist so that it is not rotated all the way palm down as Funakoshi is said to have taught the school children (so they would not hurt each other) but only slightly so that my knuckles will fit the triangle-like opening without getting caught in the ribs.

It seems that for the most part when aiming higher I tend to use a vertical fist and lower like the solar plexus level it is more of a cork screw punch, exceptions being uppercuts and when kneeling etc. so what is your take on the point of contact and elbow down or out etc punches and as always why?
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

March 1st, 2010, 2:41 am #2

If the punch is going to a target that requires a bend in the wrist to make contact with the two large knuckles first, I teach a vertical punch. I don't want the wrist to act as a shock absorber. However, if you can strike with those two knuckles and get full rotation, full torque, go for it. The vertical doesn't allow full torque but has greater range of use.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

March 1st, 2010, 2:49 am #3

Punching: on the rotation of the fist.

The fitting concept in Kenpo seems to encourage the use of a striking point of contact that literally fits the shape of the target.
My first question is do you have any thoughts on fitting as either a good concept to adopt in the execution of strikes or do you feel it is not a worthwhile concept to adopt and Why?

Some prefer to torque the fist palm down in that Shotokan fashion and swear by it as the correct way to punch and others prefer the vertical fist in that Wing Chun fashion and feel equally strong about it as a superior way to punch. What is your take on this?

My take is that the fist should make primary contact to the target with the index and middle finger knuckles and as it passes through to the penetration point the rest of the fist will make contact but again my point of contact is the large two knuckles. That said then depending on the location and nature of the target I will rotate my fist as much as I need to, to have the two large knuckles as my point of contact. So in the case of the Xiphoid process as the target I will torque my fist so that it is not rotated all the way palm down as Funakoshi is said to have taught the school children (so they would not hurt each other) but only slightly so that my knuckles will fit the triangle-like opening without getting caught in the ribs.

It seems that for the most part when aiming higher I tend to use a vertical fist and lower like the solar plexus level it is more of a cork screw punch, exceptions being uppercuts and when kneeling etc. so what is your take on the point of contact and elbow down or out etc punches and as always why?
Vertical to anything above your elbow level, horizontal below.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Joined: September 5th, 2008, 1:18 am

March 1st, 2010, 1:49 pm #4

Punching: on the rotation of the fist.

The fitting concept in Kenpo seems to encourage the use of a striking point of contact that literally fits the shape of the target.
My first question is do you have any thoughts on fitting as either a good concept to adopt in the execution of strikes or do you feel it is not a worthwhile concept to adopt and Why?

Some prefer to torque the fist palm down in that Shotokan fashion and swear by it as the correct way to punch and others prefer the vertical fist in that Wing Chun fashion and feel equally strong about it as a superior way to punch. What is your take on this?

My take is that the fist should make primary contact to the target with the index and middle finger knuckles and as it passes through to the penetration point the rest of the fist will make contact but again my point of contact is the large two knuckles. That said then depending on the location and nature of the target I will rotate my fist as much as I need to, to have the two large knuckles as my point of contact. So in the case of the Xiphoid process as the target I will torque my fist so that it is not rotated all the way palm down as Funakoshi is said to have taught the school children (so they would not hurt each other) but only slightly so that my knuckles will fit the triangle-like opening without getting caught in the ribs.

It seems that for the most part when aiming higher I tend to use a vertical fist and lower like the solar plexus level it is more of a cork screw punch, exceptions being uppercuts and when kneeling etc. so what is your take on the point of contact and elbow down or out etc punches and as always why?
The problem with punching above the shoulder height with a horizontal fist (palm down) is that it is anatomically weaker as a result of the radius and ulna bones criss-crossing each other, thus stretching the forearm muscles too far, and increasing the probability that one will break his wrist. Conversely, a vertical punch aligns the radius and ulna bones which makes the wrist less likely to break upon impact of the punch.


Jamie Seabrook
CKF Canada
www.jamieseabrook.com
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

March 1st, 2010, 5:40 pm #5

Punching: on the rotation of the fist.

The fitting concept in Kenpo seems to encourage the use of a striking point of contact that literally fits the shape of the target.
My first question is do you have any thoughts on fitting as either a good concept to adopt in the execution of strikes or do you feel it is not a worthwhile concept to adopt and Why?

Some prefer to torque the fist palm down in that Shotokan fashion and swear by it as the correct way to punch and others prefer the vertical fist in that Wing Chun fashion and feel equally strong about it as a superior way to punch. What is your take on this?

My take is that the fist should make primary contact to the target with the index and middle finger knuckles and as it passes through to the penetration point the rest of the fist will make contact but again my point of contact is the large two knuckles. That said then depending on the location and nature of the target I will rotate my fist as much as I need to, to have the two large knuckles as my point of contact. So in the case of the Xiphoid process as the target I will torque my fist so that it is not rotated all the way palm down as Funakoshi is said to have taught the school children (so they would not hurt each other) but only slightly so that my knuckles will fit the triangle-like opening without getting caught in the ribs.

It seems that for the most part when aiming higher I tend to use a vertical fist and lower like the solar plexus level it is more of a cork screw punch, exceptions being uppercuts and when kneeling etc. so what is your take on the point of contact and elbow down or out etc punches and as always why?
good question and there are many variables. There are no absolutely clear cut answers.. However my observation is that the far majority of practiciners cannot punch correctly in any configuration much less tourquing the fist down. Perhaps people should learn to punch in the classical manner first before projecting into things they are not ready for.

Following the path of least resistence is what makes both rivers and men run crooked..
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:36 pm

March 1st, 2010, 6:16 pm #6

A well stated coherent post from Bob!

Dan Weston
2nd Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:36 pm

March 1st, 2010, 6:22 pm #7

Punching: on the rotation of the fist.

The fitting concept in Kenpo seems to encourage the use of a striking point of contact that literally fits the shape of the target.
My first question is do you have any thoughts on fitting as either a good concept to adopt in the execution of strikes or do you feel it is not a worthwhile concept to adopt and Why?

Some prefer to torque the fist palm down in that Shotokan fashion and swear by it as the correct way to punch and others prefer the vertical fist in that Wing Chun fashion and feel equally strong about it as a superior way to punch. What is your take on this?

My take is that the fist should make primary contact to the target with the index and middle finger knuckles and as it passes through to the penetration point the rest of the fist will make contact but again my point of contact is the large two knuckles. That said then depending on the location and nature of the target I will rotate my fist as much as I need to, to have the two large knuckles as my point of contact. So in the case of the Xiphoid process as the target I will torque my fist so that it is not rotated all the way palm down as Funakoshi is said to have taught the school children (so they would not hurt each other) but only slightly so that my knuckles will fit the triangle-like opening without getting caught in the ribs.

It seems that for the most part when aiming higher I tend to use a vertical fist and lower like the solar plexus level it is more of a cork screw punch, exceptions being uppercuts and when kneeling etc. so what is your take on the point of contact and elbow down or out etc punches and as always why?
Boxers use the "corkscrew punch" for jabs to the face as well as for right crosses etc. It's largely a matter of turning into it and puting the shoulder behind it to make it effective. In Kajukenbo we use a lot of boxing punches as well as more "martial arts" type punches, so I guess it would depend on the particular technique to determine the punch.

Dan Weston
2nd Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

March 1st, 2010, 6:35 pm #8

The problem with punching above the shoulder height with a horizontal fist (palm down) is that it is anatomically weaker as a result of the radius and ulna bones criss-crossing each other, thus stretching the forearm muscles too far, and increasing the probability that one will break his wrist. Conversely, a vertical punch aligns the radius and ulna bones which makes the wrist less likely to break upon impact of the punch.


Jamie Seabrook
CKF Canada
www.jamieseabrook.com
The reality is that you should punch vertically on anything above "shoulder" level, and you can do either/or (vertical or horizontal) on anything below shoulder. This is, of course, when it comes to street self-defense. Sport is a different story.

You will never win a boxing, kickboxing or MMA fight by punching vertically to the head, in my opinion. You need to have the snap of the punch, which is a direct result of the torquing the fist to the horizontal position and back. We are able to get away with it in sport because our wrists/hands are wrapped and gloves are put on.
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:36 pm

March 1st, 2010, 6:43 pm #9

In old bareknuckle boxing matches, they still used the corkscrew punches to the head. They just hit with the two large knuckles rather than the smaller knuckles that are used for the "power line" that modern boxers with taped hands utilize. Also, take a look at old photos of Choki Motobu. He always uses the corkscrew punch to the head in them rather than a vertical punch.


Dan Weston
2nd Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

March 1st, 2010, 6:59 pm #10

good question and there are many variables. There are no absolutely clear cut answers.. However my observation is that the far majority of practiciners cannot punch correctly in any configuration much less tourquing the fist down. Perhaps people should learn to punch in the classical manner first before projecting into things they are not ready for.

Following the path of least resistence is what makes both rivers and men run crooked..
Get on a bag and practice folks...

Good post D/B or ???

Gary
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