Kenpo in Application

Kenpo in Application

Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

April 27th, 2010, 12:41 pm #1

Is it just me or do Kenpoist start to look a lot like kickboxers when they try to apply it on a moving resisting opponent. Why do you think that is or why do you disagree?
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Joined: August 9th, 2003, 1:19 pm

April 27th, 2010, 3:07 pm #2

Well I don't see that myself, but I have studied and analyzed Kenpo and other Martial Arts so much that I can easily see the difference. In my humble opinion Advance Kenpo is weaker than Kick Boxing. Kick Boxing is stronger do to the fact that is broken down to what works. Advance Kenpo has a lot of wishful thinking moves. I mean surely "and we have talked about this on this forum" many Kenpo strikes are almost impossible to execute in a real fight, let alone the opponent reacting as they do in most demonstrations. In short Advance Kenpo could learn a few thins by watching some in close Boxing moves, such as the body torque.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
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kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

April 27th, 2010, 3:24 pm #3

Is it just me or do Kenpoist start to look a lot like kickboxers when they try to apply it on a moving resisting opponent. Why do you think that is or why do you disagree?
I don't see it as far as in technique lines and working on "resistant" dummies,

But I think I would agree that it does begin to look like kickboxing in tournament fighting. When working in the self defense divisions of tournaments I think it goes back to the way it would look if you were to get into an altercation on the streets with more than one defender.

But then again, it would depend on who was doing the demo/routine.

Back to the mats,

Angela
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 5:59 pm

April 27th, 2010, 3:37 pm #4

Is it just me or do Kenpoist start to look a lot like kickboxers when they try to apply it on a moving resisting opponent. Why do you think that is or why do you disagree?
I was wondering if you were talking about how when sparring or competing in point based tournaments most of us don't do traditional Kenpo Techniques. In my opinion the reason is because in tournaments the goal is to score three points first. There are rules involved that shape the way we have to "Spar". To perform a true Kenpo technique you have to cause pain as the techniques rely heavily on the persons reaction to that pain. In tournaments you are not trrying to hurt your Oppononent you are just trying to score more points then them and points are counted when you strike with specific weapons to specific targets.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

April 27th, 2010, 3:43 pm #5

I don't see it as far as in technique lines and working on "resistant" dummies,

But I think I would agree that it does begin to look like kickboxing in tournament fighting. When working in the self defense divisions of tournaments I think it goes back to the way it would look if you were to get into an altercation on the streets with more than one defender.

But then again, it would depend on who was doing the demo/routine.

Back to the mats,

Angela
I have not in a long time...But in some organizations they don't do it, on purpose...

Sparring is essential some mention, others don't feel it is really needed...

I also notice that most "fist way fighting and kicking", takes on a "Kickboxing" look...

Regards,
Gary
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

April 27th, 2010, 3:48 pm #6

I was wondering if you were talking about how when sparring or competing in point based tournaments most of us don't do traditional Kenpo Techniques. In my opinion the reason is because in tournaments the goal is to score three points first. There are rules involved that shape the way we have to "Spar". To perform a true Kenpo technique you have to cause pain as the techniques rely heavily on the persons reaction to that pain. In tournaments you are not trrying to hurt your Oppononent you are just trying to score more points then them and points are counted when you strike with specific weapons to specific targets.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
Sparring produces pain...If not done with protection I have noticed...

Why it is not done in some locations...The equipment is costly...

Teaching movements and motions, very effective...But pain makes believers...



Gary

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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

April 27th, 2010, 5:06 pm #7

Is it just me or do Kenpoist start to look a lot like kickboxers when they try to apply it on a moving resisting opponent. Why do you think that is or why do you disagree?
Agree, when the idea is to simply fill time, uniforms and take students who are unprepared for sparring in tournaments.

Disagree, well not so much, see if your feet know what they are, should, could, and will be doing, then Kenpo techniques are the best way to point spar. Which part of Alternating Mace is used in tournaments? All of it (trick question), we use all of the motions but they are rearranged to fit the available targets with the avialable weapons. Umm, position recognition and weapons to targets. It's really that easy Sami. I saw a video of Mr. Parker (before I even knew there was a Kenpo) doing a series of drills that I recognized as drills being used and taught in Orange County, CA..

Agree and agree, that's my answer. Not much help there I think! LOL
Clark
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

April 27th, 2010, 5:25 pm #8

I was wondering if you were talking about how when sparring or competing in point based tournaments most of us don't do traditional Kenpo Techniques. In my opinion the reason is because in tournaments the goal is to score three points first. There are rules involved that shape the way we have to "Spar". To perform a true Kenpo technique you have to cause pain as the techniques rely heavily on the persons reaction to that pain. In tournaments you are not trrying to hurt your Oppononent you are just trying to score more points then them and points are counted when you strike with specific weapons to specific targets.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
"I was wondering if you were talking about how when sparring or competing in point based tournaments most of us don't do traditional Kenpo Techniques."

Look deeper into your current skills when sparring with your green belt and under students. We are mostly, a technique dominant system, so when it's in house, I bet you do Mike.

"In my opinion the reason is because in tournaments the goal is to score three points first. There are rules involved that shape the way we have to "Spar". "

Or five point, two point kicks above the waist and such, the rules tell us what not to do as well as what we can get away with. Sound like Kenpo techniques to you? I hate rules, I break them every chance I get, but only after I know what they are. Learn the rule, understand the rule, break the rule.

"To perform a true Kenpo technique you have to cause pain as the techniques rely heavily on the persons reaction to that pain."

Absolutes again Mike? A finger whip is a back knuckle. The gloves protect the wearer, not the opponent. Groin protectors do not cancel the force, they deflect and disperse the force away from the tender bits, but, if you pointed your foot when you kicked someone wearing a cup, your reaction would be painful. That is true everywhere.

"In tournaments you are not trrying to hurt your Oppononent you are just trying to score more points then them and points are counted when you strike with specific weapons to specific targets."

Where is that line Mike? Seriously, if you can make your weapons strike/contact the opponents targets, then you have achieved the first step that competition supplies. The amateurs ability to act like professionals, thereby satisfying the need to act like, look like, and emulate professionals who are paid to condition their bodies and take the hits that we, as martial artists, are trying to avoid. Not all of us are amateurs, some of us are true warriors with the arsenal and the responsibility to use their weapons to permanently end a life, and some are just as dedicated, as training partners to professional fighters, or we take a grand championship ($ good), or we put our bodies in the line of fire as body guards, knowing that we might catch a little hell doing it. What true Kenpo technique should I have used to arrest a skip who was wearing a heavy coat in 80 degree weather? I was an orange belt at the time and had yet to learn Blinding Sacrifice. But there I was, jerking his coat lapels down around his shoulders, pinning his arms to his side. Was I doing Blinding Sacrifice then? The skip was busted for weapons charges. Fortunately he was high and unarmed. True Kenpo comes from instinct and preparedness. And a 5 d-cell maglight to bust them up side their head works good to.
CLark
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

April 27th, 2010, 11:28 pm #9

Is it just me or do Kenpoist start to look a lot like kickboxers when they try to apply it on a moving resisting opponent. Why do you think that is or why do you disagree?
I do not mean point sparring I dont care enough for that garbage to ask about it... yeah it can be fun and blah blah blah.

I mean full contact, drop your guard and get knocked out fighting. I was expecting to hear something along the lines of:

"There is only so many ways to deliver a punch or kick to a moving target"

"Motion is motion regardless of style or system"

"We work our Kenpo techniques and forms to improve our basics for fighting not to be used in a flowery sequence"

"ARMMING"

or something along those lines...

It is just that if martial artist's fighting always falls back to boxing footwork and kickboxing type combos why bother training the curr. why not just focus on the same thing the pro's focus on? Conditioning, Bags, Pads and lots of sparring...what was five swords for again?
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

April 28th, 2010, 1:19 am #10

Is it just me or do Kenpoist start to look a lot like kickboxers when they try to apply it on a moving resisting opponent. Why do you think that is or why do you disagree?
What do you think of the saying

"Train as you fight"

When lives are on the line the best training has always been to replicate as close as possible the conditions and challenges a person will encounter in real world applications.

Crawl, Walk and Run Phases of training are important steps to being able to reach that goal. If you take a bunch of folks who have no weapons training and ask them to work on room clearing and hostage rescue well your just setting them up for failure.

So in that sense building up to the run phase to get to that realistic training is fine, I take no issue with that.

To me Kenpo Self Defense Techniques and Forms are the crawl phase along with solo basics...what I start wondering about is when that student is going to get to the train as you fight stage because in the end spending eternity on the crawl phase is going to lead to poor results.

To bridge the gap from the paper concept of the art to working against realistic challenges under pressure a change has to take place in what is being worked on.

There is this drill that is standard in the army for flanking when reacting to an enemy ambush, I am not going to break it down because it is still in use but anyway I really hate it... because I always get the urge to do something else... I have tried those other things and have found the error of my ways, my stupid idea's had me in a bad position in relation to other elements of the team, I had to be trained to do things a certain way and I am still working on it lol.

Anyway to me it seems that Kenpo should be that way, we should spend most of our time working on methods that can be applied on fully resisting enemies after we get past the crawl and walk phase. The problem as I see it with people's martial arts training is that to much time is spent on the crawl phase to milk them of money while putting silly colored belts around those fat bellies. 10 years later the student has learned to crawl with grace and flow and at times even look impressive doing it. I hardly ever see any youtube clips of the walk phase that bridges the gap between the crawl and run phase. Instead I see a lot of crawl phase and some attempts at run phase that look like walk phase was never worked on.

Yes I know we have exceptions to that and if I wanted to talk smack about YOUR Kenpo I would have named the person, so this is not an attack on anyone's Kenpo, this is just a guy asking, what your thoughts are on train as you fight.
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