Info request

Info request

Joined: February 1st, 2005, 2:47 pm

December 20th, 2007, 2:16 pm #1

Hi All

I started my journey (adventure, some call it) in the martial arts in 1980 studying Shotokan karate. In 1981 I joined a local Kenpo club that called itself "Ed Parker's Advanced American Kenpo". I studied it for a number of years until I met someone who actually studied with Mr Parker. That person was Mr Ed Downey, who brought along Mr John Conway Jr to conduct a seminar in our club.

The Kenpo I started in was of John McSweeney's lineage, who was a student of Parker's, but McSweeney diverged when Parker wanted to update the system, wanting instead to keep what he trusted to work and eschew the sophistication Mr Parker was developing.

Although quite different in many respects, it gave me a good grounding for my later years studying under Mr Downey.

In the old system, we had no names for techniques, and the Forms were different. For example, Short 1 was simply Blocking Form, Long One was Form 1, Short 2 was on the end of Form 1 instead of the Short 1 triplets. Also our modern Short 3 was the old Form 2, the modern Long 2 was Form 3 and the Book Set was the old Form 4. Long 3 was the old Form 5, and so on. Angles and some weaponry were different, and stances were bigger as were the circular motions used.

The things that interest me are as follows:

How did the Forms come to change from those taught by McSweeney to the modern Forms and who was involved?

When did the techniques start getting names and why?

Are there any of the 'Old Timers' who were contemporaries of John McSweeney still training?

I might think of some others but this will get me started. I want to write an article about the subject so any information is gratefully received.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 20th, 2007, 10:50 pm #2

The technique names supposedly showed up after the Tracy's left, because they began naming all the techniques that were originally present. Mr. Parker opted to go along the same route, but chose to try to use naming patterns to help show relationships (a la Gift, Lance, Rod, Storm, etc.) The Tracy's have some funky names, like Legion of Ming and Chinese Junk...

As far as the forms, Mr. Hebler was telling me the forms up thru Long 6 were in place by 1966. He knew and was teaching them and shortly after opened the Glendora, CA school.

By 1961 when the "big breakup" occurred with Jimmy Woo, Book Set was removed because it was directly from Woo.

Depending on when Mr. McSweeney had his training and left, would relate to the forms he knew and was teaching. At the same time, things may have been rearranged by your school owner or even his instructor.


JM
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

December 20th, 2007, 11:50 pm #3

this was something I was told to by a few people and as far as the names go they were first done by the Tracy brothers.
It was also understood Mr.Parker created names that were more interesting by giving them as a Code word such as Gift(Handshake),Salute(Heel Palm),Storm(Club/stick) and Destuction/Destructive(Left side)just to name a few. Very common as a way to disguise the real meaning and method of what the Kenpo student would be doing as a student. It is also a method the Boxers use to coach their players so the opponent did not know what your combinations were as your coach would command from his corner to his fighter in the ring.
This is a great stradegy many use in the Ring and for helping students learn as a aid to
learning the combinations and how to battle an opponent successfully.

Also typical as the Chinese were names like Clouds,Branch,Leaves ect...were about nature and were used to show there character and respect to mankind.
I will say I was happy to see that Parker system was never made to learn the technique called "Passing Wind" as it might be a real call of nature to see that taught...LOL!
TCB...Sean Kelley
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Joined: October 24th, 2007, 7:55 pm

December 21st, 2007, 12:24 am #4

dont get me wrong in no way do i have any first hand knowledge... that being said i did a little looking around on the internet and it seem he started with ed parker in 1959 and was awarded his shodan in 1962.. after witch he moved to ireland.. eventually promoted to 7'th by parker... i dont remember where i found it but there was a rank certificate on the web for his 7'th black from parker dated january 06 1990... thought that might help..as a previous person said all the forms up through 6 were created by 1966 maybe this is why mcsweeney didnt have them because he went his own route in 1962... this is not fact like i said i only found this info on the web...
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

December 21st, 2007, 12:53 am #5

Last edited by 6410382 on December 21st, 2007, 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 24th, 2007, 7:55 pm

December 21st, 2007, 2:21 am #6

the link didnt work for me.....
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Joined: January 22nd, 2004, 5:13 pm

December 21st, 2007, 7:36 pm #7

this was something I was told to by a few people and as far as the names go they were first done by the Tracy brothers.
It was also understood Mr.Parker created names that were more interesting by giving them as a Code word such as Gift(Handshake),Salute(Heel Palm),Storm(Club/stick) and Destuction/Destructive(Left side)just to name a few. Very common as a way to disguise the real meaning and method of what the Kenpo student would be doing as a student. It is also a method the Boxers use to coach their players so the opponent did not know what your combinations were as your coach would command from his corner to his fighter in the ring.
This is a great stradegy many use in the Ring and for helping students learn as a aid to
learning the combinations and how to battle an opponent successfully.

Also typical as the Chinese were names like Clouds,Branch,Leaves ect...were about nature and were used to show there character and respect to mankind.
I will say I was happy to see that Parker system was never made to learn the technique called "Passing Wind" as it might be a real call of nature to see that taught...LOL!
TCB...Sean Kelley
Hi folks!
Everything I have ever seen regarding John Mcsweeney has always listed him as the first international black belt to come directly from Ed Parker. The tracys list him because they recognized him as a Kenpo Senior who was there in the early days and clearly state that even on their website and history.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS:BTW, presently there are a couple of John Mcsweeney's original students demonstrating the original versions of the forms as they learned it [long form 4 listed as "form 6"], It's interesting to see!
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

December 21st, 2007, 9:10 pm #8

This was written by Will Tracy: (You'll see in the first paragraph where he says "John McSweeney was Al Tracy's student. . ."

Link: http://kenpokarate.com/ikka.html


"John McSweeney's Shodan

The first certificate issued by the IKKA was to John McSweeney, as Shodan, dated September 27, 1962, even though John was actually promoted on August 26 1962, when the KKAA board met in San Francisco. The School code on McSweeney's IKKA certificate is 1-01-EP, which is translated as Ed Parker, school 1 (Pasadena) student 1 (McSweeney). However, Ed Parker promoted Chuck Sullivan, to "First Degree Black Belt" (not Shodan) about two weeks before McSweeney's IKKA certificate is dated, and Sullivan received a KKAA certificate, not an IKKA certificate. John McSweeney was Al Tracy's student, and John told me he took his KKAA Shodan Certificate to Ireland with him, and took it off the wall when Ed sent him his IKKA certificate several months later.

The KKAA promoted John McSweeney to Shodan on August 26, 1962. Those who argue differently were not there. My brothers and I were. Ed Parker called a KKAA promotion meeting on that day (Sunday) to discuss three important matters. The meeting was held at the Empress restaurant, in San Francisco with Ed, my two brothers and me. The first matter was to promote John to Shodan. There were also three brown belts approved that night. John McSweeney was leaving for Ireland soon and Ed wanted him to have his Shodan certificate before he left. After the meeting we went to our studio on Ocean Avenue where I personally filled out the certificates and Ed signed and stamped. Since I personally typed in John's name the rest of the information on the KKAA certificate, I think I know a bit more about this than those who weren't there.

Some have pointed to the 1962 date on John McSweeney's IKKA certificate as proof that the IKKA existed at that time. All the date proves is the certificate had a date of September 27, 1962, not that it was actually filled out on that date. John had been teaching in Ireland for over a year when the IKKA was created; and, the IKKA was created in part because of John McSweeney. Ed Parker could not very well issue a Shodan certificate dated December 1963, because John already had a KKAA certificated dated August 1962. All Ed did was simply backdate the certificate. But he could not backdate it to August 1962 because Chuck Sullivan was not promoted to Black Belt until September 1962, and Chuck Sullivan's signature is on the certificate; and further, the date of John's IKKA promotion would have to come after Chuck Sullivan's promotion."
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

December 22nd, 2007, 3:19 am #9

this was something I was told to by a few people and as far as the names go they were first done by the Tracy brothers.
It was also understood Mr.Parker created names that were more interesting by giving them as a Code word such as Gift(Handshake),Salute(Heel Palm),Storm(Club/stick) and Destuction/Destructive(Left side)just to name a few. Very common as a way to disguise the real meaning and method of what the Kenpo student would be doing as a student. It is also a method the Boxers use to coach their players so the opponent did not know what your combinations were as your coach would command from his corner to his fighter in the ring.
This is a great stradegy many use in the Ring and for helping students learn as a aid to
learning the combinations and how to battle an opponent successfully.

Also typical as the Chinese were names like Clouds,Branch,Leaves ect...were about nature and were used to show there character and respect to mankind.
I will say I was happy to see that Parker system was never made to learn the technique called "Passing Wind" as it might be a real call of nature to see that taught...LOL!
TCB...Sean Kelley
Sean that is an interesting term for sure. I find it ok for it was not intended to be something that now is used for a term which has changed and was innocent at the time it was used. Similar to, "gay time".
Now we know that a "gay time" is confused with other activity. Strange you would bring that one to the table. LOL...You are truly a person with a huge agenda and have been that way for a very long time. Not bad, really just good to be able to put it in its proper place.

Read this it explains it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence

Gary
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

December 22nd, 2007, 4:13 am #10

as well as reading the insults Will Tracy puts up on their web site about Mr.Parker or attacking the Mormon Faith as a blame game.
To me this is a great person to be lead by and I wish them many more successful Gatherings of the Eagle get togethers....Happy Holidays!
TCB....Sean Kelley
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