I warned you,

I warned you,

Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

August 1st, 2008, 8:42 am #1

so don't say I didn't!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvgGU85_F7k

Stance Set 1 - StS1

Clark
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Joined: May 7th, 2004, 11:02 am

August 1st, 2008, 10:39 am #2

Nice video demonstrating what's in the set.

In the information it says "Keep your head level and don't bob up and down." I don't quite agree with that. If you move from natural stance to neutral bow, you weight drops. Whenever you use a forward or reverse bow, your weight, and therefore your head, should be lower then in a neutral bow (which is logical, when shifting from neutral to forward, you widen you base, which you can't do without lowering your weight). Twist stances have a lower centre of gravity then a neutral bow too.

So IMHO it should have said: "Keep your head at the appropriate level and don't bob up and down too much "

I had never seen the forward part before. It seems to me that it's not logical to apply a cat stance when moving forward from a neutral bow to a twist stance.

And last but not least a question to all about the reverse bow stance. If is often defined as "a forward bow, but looking backwards". This would mean that moving into a reverse bow would imply a weight shift onto the front foot towards the typical weightdistribution for a forward bow of 40-60. I don't have the encyclopedia with me here at the office, so I don't know what the definition inthere is. It is at some sites said that it may be used to strike backwards. An example that comes to mind is the end of circling wing.

But how can I effectively strike backward if my weight is distributed forward at the same time?

Therefore I always practice my reverse bow stances with the footpositions similar to a forward bow, but the weightshift the other way around (so backward, in the direction I intend to strike).

I'd be interested to hear your opinions about this.

Regards and thanks again for the video.

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

August 1st, 2008, 11:29 am #3

Hi, Marcel.

Using your example of Circling Wing... Is the direction of the strike to which you are referring really backward, or should it be up? In the way we execute the technique, after the upward elbow, the right arm stays on the circle and travels a full 45 minutes on the clock from their chin to the groin, striking with the hammerfist on an upswing - not down and back. Using the textbook weight distribution of the reverse bow lowers the height to make this possible. It also gets your upper body out of the way for when they collapse and sets you up to exit with a scoop kick without an "and then" as you are already lighter on the rear leg. I hope that conveyed what I was trying to say.

Hope all is well.

Dan Puleo
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

August 1st, 2008, 11:54 am #4

I was thinking more about your execution to the reverse bow strike in Circling Wing, and this question occurred to me... If you are going to drive INTO him with the hammerfist shot, why turn your back at all? Couldn't you continue to face him and shuffle in with the hammerfist, like in Swinging Pendulum?

We refer to the reverse bow as an "exit stance". There is no exit in your model; you've just turned around to move forward in reverse - exposing your back to greater risk than reward, IMHO. Seems we've got some different things going on there. Hmmmm... Interesting.

DP
Last edited by DanPuleo on August 1st, 2008, 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 7th, 2004, 11:02 am

August 1st, 2008, 12:17 pm #5

Hi, Marcel.

Using your example of Circling Wing... Is the direction of the strike to which you are referring really backward, or should it be up? In the way we execute the technique, after the upward elbow, the right arm stays on the circle and travels a full 45 minutes on the clock from their chin to the groin, striking with the hammerfist on an upswing - not down and back. Using the textbook weight distribution of the reverse bow lowers the height to make this possible. It also gets your upper body out of the way for when they collapse and sets you up to exit with a scoop kick without an "and then" as you are already lighter on the rear leg. I hope that conveyed what I was trying to say.

Hope all is well.

Dan Puleo
I guess it did convey what you were trying to say (or I understood you completely wrong )

The situation you describe is that the opponents feet stay exactly where they were when you apply the upward elbow, which in reality seems highly unlikely to me. He arches his back so that his groin moves towards you, which might enable you to hit his groin upwardly while moving away in your reverse bow.

In reality however, he will (most of the time) not stay on his feet, but stumble away at least a bit, which would force you to move towards him while striking (either upward or forward). The problem is that once you initiate your upward elbow continuing the circle to the upward underhand hammerfist while moving away in your reverse bow, you'll never be able to adjust in time to hit him even if he is not at the position where you expect him to be.

In other words, the use of the reverse bow moving away might lead to a hit in the groin, while the other way around will absolutely do so. I know which option I want to use.

Anyhow, I will always choose to move in until I'm done. If I'd need a strike while moving away, I'd appearently move away while I'm not sure yet whether I'm done or not. He might need another strike after the groin shot, but I'm already on my way out. This seems like a violation of the cycle of considerations to me (if I recall the cycle correctly, but it's been a long time since I studied that).

Regards, and lets not forget to try these versions of circling wings next year in Florida

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
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Joined: May 7th, 2004, 11:02 am

August 1st, 2008, 12:37 pm #6

I was thinking more about your execution to the reverse bow strike in Circling Wing, and this question occurred to me... If you are going to drive INTO him with the hammerfist shot, why turn your back at all? Couldn't you continue to face him and shuffle in with the hammerfist, like in Swinging Pendulum?

We refer to the reverse bow as an "exit stance". There is no exit in your model; you've just turned around to move forward in reverse - exposing your back to greater risk than reward, IMHO. Seems we've got some different things going on there. Hmmmm... Interesting.

DP
I saw your PS after responding to the previous. IMHO in a reverse bow you don't turn your back to the opponent, at least I don't. In this stance (or in fact it's more like a manouvre) I use the pivotting of my feet to drive my mass towards the opponent. My body turns slightly anti-clockwise (if used from a right neutral, like in CW), but not so much that my back will be towards the opponent. In the process my right schoulder (and thus the arm and the weapon) move closer to the opponent too.

After impact, if I decide that I'm done, I cross out while still facing the opponent. In an ideal situation I never exit with my back towards the opponent. This might ofcourse be different if there are other factors that urge me to face away from the initial opponent.

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

August 1st, 2008, 1:24 pm #7

Nice video demonstrating what's in the set.

In the information it says "Keep your head level and don't bob up and down." I don't quite agree with that. If you move from natural stance to neutral bow, you weight drops. Whenever you use a forward or reverse bow, your weight, and therefore your head, should be lower then in a neutral bow (which is logical, when shifting from neutral to forward, you widen you base, which you can't do without lowering your weight). Twist stances have a lower centre of gravity then a neutral bow too.

So IMHO it should have said: "Keep your head at the appropriate level and don't bob up and down too much "

I had never seen the forward part before. It seems to me that it's not logical to apply a cat stance when moving forward from a neutral bow to a twist stance.

And last but not least a question to all about the reverse bow stance. If is often defined as "a forward bow, but looking backwards". This would mean that moving into a reverse bow would imply a weight shift onto the front foot towards the typical weightdistribution for a forward bow of 40-60. I don't have the encyclopedia with me here at the office, so I don't know what the definition inthere is. It is at some sites said that it may be used to strike backwards. An example that comes to mind is the end of circling wing.

But how can I effectively strike backward if my weight is distributed forward at the same time?

Therefore I always practice my reverse bow stances with the footpositions similar to a forward bow, but the weightshift the other way around (so backward, in the direction I intend to strike).

I'd be interested to hear your opinions about this.

Regards and thanks again for the video.

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
"Therefore I always practice my reverse bow stances with the footpositions similar to a forward bow, but the weightshift the other way around (so backward, in the direction I intend to strike)."

That is the way I do it as well and I feel it should be done that way in terms of combat.

Look at it this way: If we are using a reverse bow to buckle, like we do in spreading branch, it would be difficult and not too practical to make the attempt with more weight on the rear foot.

The only time I can see usage for more weight on the rear foot would be in a sparring situation where you are getting your head out of the way and may follow up with a kick (using the front foot).

NOTE: We must all be on the same page of what is front and what is rear foot. If I am in a left forward bow (left leg forward), my left leg would be my front foot. If I turn my head in the opposite direction, now in a reverse bow, my right leg is now considered my front leg.

I thought I would mention that because it can be confusing to a beginner.

Michael Miller, CKF
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

August 1st, 2008, 3:38 pm #8

I saw your PS after responding to the previous. IMHO in a reverse bow you don't turn your back to the opponent, at least I don't. In this stance (or in fact it's more like a manouvre) I use the pivotting of my feet to drive my mass towards the opponent. My body turns slightly anti-clockwise (if used from a right neutral, like in CW), but not so much that my back will be towards the opponent. In the process my right schoulder (and thus the arm and the weapon) move closer to the opponent too.

After impact, if I decide that I'm done, I cross out while still facing the opponent. In an ideal situation I never exit with my back towards the opponent. This might ofcourse be different if there are other factors that urge me to face away from the initial opponent.

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
....The Ideal technique "Circling Wing" there are many variations taught both right or in better words different.
In my opinion the beginning of the technique in Motion is a 5 Swords" parallel and it is the family of ..Twirling Wings, Cross of Destruction,and Fallen Cross.
The thought process of "Intent" may play into this as to "I reverse my BOw" or do I keep my anatomical alignment facing my work?
Also this technique is a Margin for Error technique where you can make a change up or Graft if you desire.
The Circling Wing Mechanics is to teach a student as well not to have "False Travel", while understanding the Line of Force of the Hammer Fist to the groin. Most use a Reverse Bow as a stance to set up the weapon with a Scoop Kick to exit with....again choice!
Marcel your experience here is far greater as a Black belt than Dan's but it is always good to know he's on track by having a time to think into it more.....okay Dan, keep your chin up and have an erect carriage to carry your body momentum in the right direction when training.
Kenpo Fingers can cause Tendons damage or a Broken nail on the Key board.....maybe that is why your head down and I yell out...Hey, Chin up young man and as a Brown Belt, if you can share the skill to another with good terminology and reason now you can begin to use the word "We" once in a while!
TCB...
Kenpo Checks and Balances
Sean Kelley
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

August 1st, 2008, 4:20 pm #9

Sometimes I think WHILE I'm typing, not before - and get things a bit muddled in the process. In the end, whether I get reaffirmation or a correction, I am hashing things out and learning from the process.

Thanks,
Dan
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

August 1st, 2008, 4:40 pm #10

Nice video demonstrating what's in the set.

In the information it says "Keep your head level and don't bob up and down." I don't quite agree with that. If you move from natural stance to neutral bow, you weight drops. Whenever you use a forward or reverse bow, your weight, and therefore your head, should be lower then in a neutral bow (which is logical, when shifting from neutral to forward, you widen you base, which you can't do without lowering your weight). Twist stances have a lower centre of gravity then a neutral bow too.

So IMHO it should have said: "Keep your head at the appropriate level and don't bob up and down too much "

I had never seen the forward part before. It seems to me that it's not logical to apply a cat stance when moving forward from a neutral bow to a twist stance.

And last but not least a question to all about the reverse bow stance. If is often defined as "a forward bow, but looking backwards". This would mean that moving into a reverse bow would imply a weight shift onto the front foot towards the typical weightdistribution for a forward bow of 40-60. I don't have the encyclopedia with me here at the office, so I don't know what the definition inthere is. It is at some sites said that it may be used to strike backwards. An example that comes to mind is the end of circling wing.

But how can I effectively strike backward if my weight is distributed forward at the same time?

Therefore I always practice my reverse bow stances with the footpositions similar to a forward bow, but the weightshift the other way around (so backward, in the direction I intend to strike).

I'd be interested to hear your opinions about this.

Regards and thanks again for the video.

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
now here is mine. Throw the ideal phase crap out the window, this is not a technique thread,nor a cat com thread. If you look carefully, the second reverse bow WAS like the forward bow you mentioned, where I shifted my weight into my left foot, BUT, solidified my weight into my right foot.

If you talk about ideal phase and leave out the lower quadrant, the leg check, the twisting to cover the groin, the bladder and the front of the knee, and so on from your groin to the ground, you are talking about half of the movement.

What is movement? It is a series of trained MOTIONS within the movement.

Why not move forward into the set? Kinda like Darting mace if you asked me. I don't use a twist stance in Darting Mace anymore (I use a transitional cat), but the analogy is good.

Kicks Set 1 is next. Nice to see an analytical thread on KENPO here on KN.

Clark
WE ARE KENPOBORG.................CONTACT RESISTANCE IS NATURAL
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