History of form 7 & 8

History of form 7 & 8

Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

January 8th, 2008, 5:55 pm #1

Can anyone shed some light on the history, development, and philosophy of forms 7 & 8?
Care to comment on the benefits for a typically unarmed warrior. If I ever have a pair of sticks in my hand, it's because I'm in the studio or just took someone's toys away. Single knife? Yes. Usually have a tactical folder which is great for opening CD cases and could be put to good use defensively. Two knives? Not likely.

I plan on learning 7, at least, and have some of my own ideas about the bennies. Just want some history and another take on it.

Thanks,

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: February 5th, 2004, 8:46 pm

January 8th, 2008, 9:40 pm #2

Mr. Peterson,
I couldn't figure out how to use a link so i reprinted an answer that I made back in October. I hope it is somewhat helpfull.

When talking about forms, I believe it is important to understand the connectivity of those forms in the sequence that they are taught when it comes to a technique based system. Forms Short 1 through Long 2 are connected and sequenced. These embryonic forms (and yes I am aware of the sophisticated contents if one is to truly explore them) are essentially sets that bring the beginning student the understanding of moving with the previously taught stationary sets; i.e., Block Set, Strike Set, Finger Set, Stance Set etc.. Short Form 3 through Form 6 are connected in that they allow the student to understand and practice moving with the techniques that they were taught. I understand that that is a simplified understanding and there is a tremendous amount of material to uncover in the forms, but I am talking about connectivity and continuity in setting the stage for the understanding of Form 8’s origination and place in the history of Ed Parker’s American Kenpo.
In and around 1965 to 1968 (not sure of the exact year) Steve Golden, a Black Belt student of Ed Parker who later went with Bruce Lee, provided the catalyst to Ed Parkers fascination and love of the blade by asking him to start teaching the knife. During those classes Twin Dagger Set was born. As Short 1 was the introduction into the Forms so too was Twin Dagger Set an introduction to the Blade. (Twin Dagger Set was later to become form 7 and eventually Form 8). Form 8 was the beginning for Ed Parkers foray into understanding the blade and the introduction of the knife into the curriculum. At the time this was cutting edge material (no pun intended). It was new and exciting material so it was taught by Mr. Parker to a select few. To my knowledge there were several that were taught the form by Mr. Parker. Mr. Pick was taught Form 8 as well as Tom Garriga and later, Larry Tatum. Mr. Pick has an early film of Tom Garriga demonstrating Form 8. However, realizing the limitations of Form 8 (it violates several principles of knife application) and the understanding that he was not ready to begin teaching that which he was formulating, Mr. Parkers teaching of knife application was dropped from the curriculum along with the official continuation of Form 8. However Mr. Parker continued his discovery, development and understanding of the blade (something he believed was the culmination of his empty hand system).It wasn’t until Mr. Pick’s return from Vietnam and his resultant experience with the blade in a combat environment that the blade again became the focus of Mr. Parker’s efforts in a formal process. Sharing with Mr. Pick his discoveries and continued evolvement in understanding application of the blade resulted in the formulation of 92 techniques, filmed and categorized by Mr. Pick which was going to be the basis for Mr. Parkers book, Speak with the Knife. From these techniques forms 9 and 10 were born, completing his system. (Form 9 being single blade to single blade consisting of 9 techniques and Form 10 being twin blades to twin blades consisting of 10 techniques). Forms 9 and 10 are technique forms and, like forms Short 3 – Form 6 allow the beginning student (of the blade) the ability to practice moving with the blade. It is interesting to me and one of my observations and beliefs that forms, no matter how sophisticated, are really designed for the beginning student for they are limiting by their very nature. The adept student uses the forms for learning and understanding of connectivity but has to move beyond them to allow that which they teach to blossom.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

January 9th, 2008, 5:52 pm #3

That explains a lot about form 8. What about the double-stick form - 7? Mr. Tatum just released a video on 7. Mr. Planas, known for his form videos has not done one (at least not commercially available) on form 7 or 8 and they aren't included in Mr. Hale's Kenpo journal. Are these two forms routinely taught or rarely taught?

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: February 5th, 2004, 8:46 pm

January 10th, 2008, 1:27 am #4

I learned Form 7 from Mr. John Sepulveda around 1991-1992 so I can at least vouch for him teaching the form as well a several others instructors that I have met. As to the prevalence of Form 7 Being taught I couldn't tell you definitively. Form 8 to the best of my knowledge is not taught by many. Few have learned the form and of those only a few of those teach it. As I stated before the form is rather antiquated and in my opinion and that of others I have spoken to valuable in historic context but not necessarily in application.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

January 10th, 2008, 2:24 am #5

Can anyone shed some light on the history, development, and philosophy of forms 7 & 8?
Care to comment on the benefits for a typically unarmed warrior. If I ever have a pair of sticks in my hand, it's because I'm in the studio or just took someone's toys away. Single knife? Yes. Usually have a tactical folder which is great for opening CD cases and could be put to good use defensively. Two knives? Not likely.

I plan on learning 7, at least, and have some of my own ideas about the bennies. Just want some history and another take on it.

Thanks,

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com
Hi Chuck,

Larry's often mentioned during my time at the studio that Form 8 was never dropped from the system and is used today throughout many Kenpo schools. It is often executed in tests (have personally seen several of our BBs at the studio test with it) and demoed in tournaments all over the globe.

If you're interested and would like to learn more about Form 8 it's available at the studio in two volumes. Vol 1 has the complete form shown in it's entirety and Vol 2 goes more in depth and explains its applications.

You can find out more details at Larry's website www.ltatum.com where it's available on DVD and of course you can always call the studio at 626-796-4029.

Hope this additional information helps in conjunction with the info from Mr. B.

Back to the mats,

Angela
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Joined: January 16th, 2004, 7:56 pm

January 10th, 2008, 5:10 am #6

Parker went through the final version of his American Kenpo with his last West LA manager (Bryan Hawkins) with the plan of starting with WLA then going from Parker school to Parker school and updating everyone. I've asked Hawkins why Form 8 was not revised or updated...it seemed that Ed Parker Sr. had many problems with it, but was doing a lot of private knife work with another student of his, Mike Pick.

There are still some people that practice Tiger and Crane which was an original piece of Parker's teachings in America, but was subsequently not apart of American Kenpo's evolution (while Parker was still alive). As there are benefits to practicing Tiger and Crane, I would also suggest there are benefits in continuing to practice Form 8. As I am very familiar with both sets/forms, I can appreciate why some include them in their current training...and why I do not.

WI, AP
UKS
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

January 10th, 2008, 11:55 pm #7

Wes, Could you please give some more information on your reason for the last statement about "I do not".

As far as knife drills go I prefer the FMA of it. I am not an AK or EPAK person. But the Kenpo that many do is in part of what I do also, minus the language of AK.
I have done the drills that are in the FMA of various groups, mentioning that it is all "chicken, different garnish/flavor".

Thanks,
Gary
Last edited by BGile on January 11th, 2008, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 16th, 2004, 7:56 pm

January 11th, 2008, 7:09 am #8

I catagorize applications into 3 groups, Useful, Not Useful and Useless. If you determine what your goals are you will best determine your choices. I have been exposed and have practiced many FMA drills over the years, so I am quite familiar.

The drills I practice for Kenpo Knife application are exactly that...Kenpo...and nothing else.

WI
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

January 11th, 2008, 9:14 pm #9

Again can you give some info, about this?

http://www.google.com/search?q=kenpo+kn ... f8&oe=utf8

Would this be more like your thoughts, hit the watch video on the screen. Utube kenpo knife fighting?

Regards,
Gary
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

January 12th, 2008, 12:24 am #10

Hi Chuck,

Larry's often mentioned during my time at the studio that Form 8 was never dropped from the system and is used today throughout many Kenpo schools. It is often executed in tests (have personally seen several of our BBs at the studio test with it) and demoed in tournaments all over the globe.

If you're interested and would like to learn more about Form 8 it's available at the studio in two volumes. Vol 1 has the complete form shown in it's entirety and Vol 2 goes more in depth and explains its applications.

You can find out more details at Larry's website www.ltatum.com where it's available on DVD and of course you can always call the studio at 626-796-4029.

Hope this additional information helps in conjunction with the info from Mr. B.

Back to the mats,

Angela
From the Desk of Larry Tatum


Form 8 embraces the totality of Kenpo concepts and principles being personified through the knife. It was designed around the Kenpo knife that was created by Gil Hibben under the direction of Ed Parker.

To dissect Form 8 is to find methods of knife fighting that are suited and not suited for the individual. The form is another comparative study through Kenpo.

Like anything within the Kenpo Encyclopedia, Form 8 is built around the existing universal patterns. It was laid out so one could extract information and by doing so glean that information to create or formulate methods by which one could find useful for themselves. It isn't the form that you fight with but rather ideas through patterns and principles that are layered into your very skills of combat.

With a form like Form 8, you can randomly select criteria for your own methods and very often ones own methods become the very foundation in establishing a new form that expresses selected ideas.

In fact, if I thought Form 8 a non-useful form I would not teach it. The patterns that make up the form are constant as so are the principles...but the choices of how and what to use in combat are open to ones perspective and or ability. It is neither all right or all wrong; it is what it is until one interacts with it.

At that point...it evolves.

Larry Tatum
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