Form 8?

Form 8?

Joined: March 21st, 2006, 10:58 pm

July 30th, 2011, 7:13 pm #1

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
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Joined: August 13th, 2004, 2:43 pm

July 30th, 2011, 8:00 pm #2

Form 8. Knifes. The Instructors who I have seen do this well. Mohammad Tababai. And Pat Salantri. Salantri actually modified the form to be more "Knife realistic" by applying Philipino knife arts and principles to it. Its real smooth and I liked working it. I think Zach Whitson may have some great thoughts on Form 8 as well. Hope all is well.
A collado
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Joined: May 7th, 2004, 11:02 am

August 1st, 2011, 7:58 am #3

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
A few months ago I put my interpretation of Form 8 up on Youtube, and in response someone asked me what the point of the form was, why I took the trouble learning it. Below my response to that question (and a link to the form on YT).

Let me start by saying I see your point regarding the usefullness of this form. There's a couple of reasons however that I still wanted to learn it.

1. Not a very good reason, but yes it is required for fifth degree.

2. Another pointless reason: I am a collector. If I collect anything, then I want to have it all, including the not so nice stuff. Among all the other reasons I train Kenpo I also collect the system.

3. I can only have a solid opinion about the usefullness of a form if I first study the form. People will argument that I should then train to catch bullits between my teeth before stating that ain't gonna work. BUT: the difference between form 8 and catching bullits is that form 8 is in the system and catching bullits is not. I do want a solid opinion about everything that is in the system, and I'll stick to just the assumption that catching bullits ain't working.

4. One thing this form did for me is it learned me to handle two knives in my hands without constantly cutting myself. And yes. I do train this with kinda sharp knives too (in Dutch: aardappelschilmesjes LOL).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrYRwN4AqDE

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
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Joined: November 18th, 2006, 12:29 am

August 1st, 2011, 9:29 am #4

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
This is extract from an interview with Gil Hibben conducted in 1996.

GIL HIBBEN a black belt in Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate system and a master knife maker. Designed the 'Kenpo knife' - also known as the 'Parker knife' in 1968 for his black belt thesis on knife fighting using Kenpo tactics. It was this thesis which led to the development of the system's long Form VIII ('the double dagger form) which uses two knives in mock combat.

"I designed the "Parker Knife" in 1968 - I put a slight angle on the guard which allows you to put your thumb up on it. This incorporates what we call a Chinese fist - where we have a greater muscle structure in the wrist holding the knife and you are able to manoeuvre more and in a much faster way to protect yourself" Hibben explained. "This slight angle on the guard also works if you turn the knife in a back position and it still fits very comfortably. So the blade is basically a standard fighter's blade that has been around for a very long time."

He continued: "The major part of it is the handle design in the way that the blade can be used with the grip. We put finger grooves along the bottom for absolute control so that you won't be able to have it taken out of your hand. The guard also protects you from your opponent's blade but it can also be used as part of the offensiveness of the knife. A lot of thought has gone into the design of it.

"He also explained that the back of the weapon allows you to hook or to catch and also affords protection if you have it forward in the front part of the hand. This section can also be used to strike with after a cut, or to keep from cutting depending on the situation.

"Of course, you wouldn't want to cut anyone unless you had to - say in a wartime situation We made a lot of these types of knives during the Vietnam War days and we sent a lot of them over there. So, unfortunately they received some action. But you don't like to think about those things, "Hibben added.

Some of the Kenpo techniques are designed for two knives. Are these knives designed to be used as a pair or singly?

Gil Hibben "Well some of the guys in competition will use two knives but I think in the real world you should use the sheath in one hand for protection to catch the opponent's edge. It's like the ancient sword way. They had a long sword and a short sword and you kept your opponent away with the long blade so that you could use the short one." Hibben added: "The two knife form is, I think, more for demonstration purposes. I also believe that you would be limited using two knives because your mind can only concentrate on one thing. To start doing multiple things isn't easy. It's difficult for the human mind to do that, especially for an untrained person."



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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

August 3rd, 2011, 1:59 am #5

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
Just an opinion:

I think that Form 8 is a good form in the context of the system. It strikes me as a way to introduce the knife to a person already trained to a high level in the Kenpo system. It is building off patterns and basics already familiar to the student who is actually trained in the system. It would make little sense to anyone else. It is introducing a lot of ideas but only touching on them but that is all anyone who is really a Kenpo Scientist needs to get them thinking.

I would hope by 3rd degree black belt knowledge of anatomical weaknesses was not a mystery and when you can gain a high degree of dexterity wielding two sharp surgical instruments it really starts to bring home the picture of just how deadly a sharp object can be in the hands of a skilled doctor.

Also, opponents have no problem breaking the correct body mechanics rule book to stab and slash at you from all manner of positions and angles so it helps to get out of the habit of expecting only Knife attacks from safe angles and set ups, The form shows you all manner of angles and positions the blade could travel on its way to your body, good thing to keep in mind when youre a 3rd degree black belt and starting to feel like your skill makes you any less mortal.
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

August 3rd, 2011, 12:49 pm #6

This is extract from an interview with Gil Hibben conducted in 1996.

GIL HIBBEN a black belt in Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate system and a master knife maker. Designed the 'Kenpo knife' - also known as the 'Parker knife' in 1968 for his black belt thesis on knife fighting using Kenpo tactics. It was this thesis which led to the development of the system's long Form VIII ('the double dagger form) which uses two knives in mock combat.

"I designed the "Parker Knife" in 1968 - I put a slight angle on the guard which allows you to put your thumb up on it. This incorporates what we call a Chinese fist - where we have a greater muscle structure in the wrist holding the knife and you are able to manoeuvre more and in a much faster way to protect yourself" Hibben explained. "This slight angle on the guard also works if you turn the knife in a back position and it still fits very comfortably. So the blade is basically a standard fighter's blade that has been around for a very long time."

He continued: "The major part of it is the handle design in the way that the blade can be used with the grip. We put finger grooves along the bottom for absolute control so that you won't be able to have it taken out of your hand. The guard also protects you from your opponent's blade but it can also be used as part of the offensiveness of the knife. A lot of thought has gone into the design of it.

"He also explained that the back of the weapon allows you to hook or to catch and also affords protection if you have it forward in the front part of the hand. This section can also be used to strike with after a cut, or to keep from cutting depending on the situation.

"Of course, you wouldn't want to cut anyone unless you had to - say in a wartime situation We made a lot of these types of knives during the Vietnam War days and we sent a lot of them over there. So, unfortunately they received some action. But you don't like to think about those things, "Hibben added.

Some of the Kenpo techniques are designed for two knives. Are these knives designed to be used as a pair or singly?

Gil Hibben "Well some of the guys in competition will use two knives but I think in the real world you should use the sheath in one hand for protection to catch the opponent's edge. It's like the ancient sword way. They had a long sword and a short sword and you kept your opponent away with the long blade so that you could use the short one." Hibben added: "The two knife form is, I think, more for demonstration purposes. I also believe that you would be limited using two knives because your mind can only concentrate on one thing. To start doing multiple things isn't easy. It's difficult for the human mind to do that, especially for an untrained person."


Boxing comes to mind, about multiple items one is doing in the ring...

'Sweet Science'

http://artofmanliness.com/2009/05/30/bo ... -bruising/

Fedor-Hendo fight was an example of multiple learned, and applied abilities

FMA and Sinawali technique...Good stuff to learn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZhsbeKcW5Q

Sticks...Got to love um!!! Different strokes for different folks!!!



Regards,
Gary

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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

August 4th, 2011, 9:07 pm #7

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
I don't do it, and I don't teach it. My opinion, based off of all my knowledge and experience, is that the form/set is completely absurd in terms of real knife combat.

Sorry, my friends. Just my opinion. A handful of rules are broken within the form/set.

If you are doing it for another reason other than to learn realistic knife combat then okay, maybe you could gain something from it. I choose not to do it.

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Joined: March 21st, 2006, 10:58 pm

August 8th, 2011, 6:11 pm #8

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
...guys.
Always good to hear different points of view and opinions.

Darren
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Joined: August 9th, 2011, 5:40 pm

August 9th, 2011, 5:46 pm #9

Just wondering if many people practise or teach Form 8 and what your opinion of it is?
Thanks in advance,

Darren.
Long Form #8 was developed between 1988-1990 and was only taught to John "Skip" Hancock for 8 times 1week (so 8 weeks total). It is a sophisticated form - much more so than the old Long Form #7 (old knife form) that had existed prior to 1988 and is taught in the IKKA as being Long Form #8.

Mr. Hancock has not made Long Form #8 public, and - to my knowledge - has only taught it to mr. Dennis Lawson.

Mr. Hancock has started with putting Blade Courses on DVD as preludes to putting Long Form #8 on DVD, and publishing the 5th Degree Black Belt Manual with things Long Form #8 teaches and contains.

To date, mr. Hancock has produced Blade Course #1 (Attitude) and Blade Course #3 (Cycle of Considerations (Self-Defense Techniques from the system explained)) on DVD, but are not available in the Kenpo 2000 shop yet.

Look for DVD's in www.kenpo2000.com.
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Joined: March 10th, 2005, 6:38 pm

August 10th, 2011, 1:58 am #10


People are still trying to claim the super secret, I was the only one taught this knowledge stuff? Wow. Hope Mr. Hancock (or his one chosen disciple he shared the secret knowledge with) decides to teach the form to others soon. It would be a shame if that super secret knowledge wasn't passed on to the youngsters. It's amazing anything was ever passed on to us plebeians with all of the super secret lessons going on between masters and disciples.



Sorry, I've had a bad couple of weeks, and my ******** meter couldn't take it anymore.

Have fun training,

Troy

Okay, upon further reflection, I'm not sorry. ******** is ********, and I'm gonna call it out.
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