Form 8, direct from LT.

Form 8, direct from LT.

Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 14th, 2009, 1:17 am #1

Form 8 is not just finger set with a twist. The finger set is in the beginning to establish the hand positions the blade will be used in the form, the set before the form. Now what Ed did was to take those positions and run them through all the patterns in Kenpo, (universal pattern) with knives. Not only does it cover stabs, slices, rips, flailing, other knife edge movements, and the butt of the weapon as well. It also covers locks with knives, holds with knives, using your opponent to blockade another attacker by holding him in place with the blades. It also covers take aways, subdued and reactionary grabs from your attacker.

The form is an in depth study of an art within an art. Yes the patterns are covered in other forms, but the art of using the knife to its fullest potential is a layer of knowledge that is not just seen in the patterns. The usage is of the knives in form 8 would be like starting at white belt with your hands and feet and everything else in between. Once the blade is clutched you're obligated to the weight and the length of the knife. This in itself fools with the brain of even the most advanced Kenpoist until his mind has accepted the addition of a man made weapon.

Blocks that were once used without a weapon are now subject to a number of new variables. Attackers motion, that when unarmed with a blade could before pass your vital targets without the same concern of a backlash from your attacker if he too has a blade. Circular motion now has to be confined into half circles or you may circle his blade, or yours into your leg, and a number of other targets, etc.. Techniques such as take downs, where your opponent might be hanging on to you, are not acceptable losses when your attacker is clinging on to you with his knifes gripping into your body. Even your ability to Kiai when taking a strike from your attacker no longer offers you the same protection when you are stabbed. What you were willing to sacrifice in empty handed combat is no longer on the table for you. Just the take downs in form 8 are a critical study of weapon to weapon in prone and standing positions. Not to mention that one part of the form is solely concerned with more than one attacker.


Other aspects of the form teach one to conceal his weapon before, during, and after the fight. There are repetitive techniques which take one into the heat of the battle (head on with the attacker) and the use of the same technique is shaded and zones of obscurity (flank and back).

No this is not just a twist on a set, but rather a complete study of a weapon. But in terms of practical use, I will contradict myself in that for the sake of timely learning for combat. I would only work on methods that are quick to learn for today's environment. Scale down the art to fit the needs.

As a note of interest, after I had learned the form, I taught it to Ernie George. He displayed it at one of the Internationals for the first time in many years. As Ed Parker watched on he said "ok now it is form 8". He told Ernie that he had done a great job in showing the form in full content.





So there you have it folks, direct words of Larry Tatum. For those that thought it mine, thanks for the compliment LOL.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Last edited by ClydeT on November 14th, 2009, 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

November 14th, 2009, 1:50 pm #2

Clyde,
First, thanks for posting. I've never even seen form 8 performed. Does anyone have a video? Does anyone both know form 8 and practice an FMA type of knife use? How do they compare in basics or in practical application?

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 14th, 2009, 2:06 pm #3

But it does give you a rudimentary idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9JOfHpV_5I

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

November 14th, 2009, 2:38 pm #4

A ton of "whys" come to mind but top of the stack is why switch hands? If it was a one handed knife form the answer would be obvious.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 14th, 2009, 2:51 pm #5

Tons of "whys", and yes, the form is seen that way intially.

The old saying of "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." comes to mind.

Learn the form, explore it with your current knowledge, measure it against other styles or systems, compare and contrast, but don't expect the answers to be given when you haven't bothered to look for any at all.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

November 14th, 2009, 4:03 pm #6

Form 8 is not just finger set with a twist. The finger set is in the beginning to establish the hand positions the blade will be used in the form, the set before the form. Now what Ed did was to take those positions and run them through all the patterns in Kenpo, (universal pattern) with knives. Not only does it cover stabs, slices, rips, flailing, other knife edge movements, and the butt of the weapon as well. It also covers locks with knives, holds with knives, using your opponent to blockade another attacker by holding him in place with the blades. It also covers take aways, subdued and reactionary grabs from your attacker.

The form is an in depth study of an art within an art. Yes the patterns are covered in other forms, but the art of using the knife to its fullest potential is a layer of knowledge that is not just seen in the patterns. The usage is of the knives in form 8 would be like starting at white belt with your hands and feet and everything else in between. Once the blade is clutched you're obligated to the weight and the length of the knife. This in itself fools with the brain of even the most advanced Kenpoist until his mind has accepted the addition of a man made weapon.

Blocks that were once used without a weapon are now subject to a number of new variables. Attackers motion, that when unarmed with a blade could before pass your vital targets without the same concern of a backlash from your attacker if he too has a blade. Circular motion now has to be confined into half circles or you may circle his blade, or yours into your leg, and a number of other targets, etc.. Techniques such as take downs, where your opponent might be hanging on to you, are not acceptable losses when your attacker is clinging on to you with his knifes gripping into your body. Even your ability to Kiai when taking a strike from your attacker no longer offers you the same protection when you are stabbed. What you were willing to sacrifice in empty handed combat is no longer on the table for you. Just the take downs in form 8 are a critical study of weapon to weapon in prone and standing positions. Not to mention that one part of the form is solely concerned with more than one attacker.


Other aspects of the form teach one to conceal his weapon before, during, and after the fight. There are repetitive techniques which take one into the heat of the battle (head on with the attacker) and the use of the same technique is shaded and zones of obscurity (flank and back).

No this is not just a twist on a set, but rather a complete study of a weapon. But in terms of practical use, I will contradict myself in that for the sake of timely learning for combat. I would only work on methods that are quick to learn for today's environment. Scale down the art to fit the needs.

As a note of interest, after I had learned the form, I taught it to Ernie George. He displayed it at one of the Internationals for the first time in many years. As Ed Parker watched on he said "ok now it is form 8". He told Ernie that he had done a great job in showing the form in full content.





So there you have it folks, direct words of Larry Tatum. For those that thought it mine, thanks for the compliment LOL.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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It's nice to see Mr. Tatum's viewpoint on this. So many different opinions from the seniors. I have formed my opinion based my experiences and own study/research.


Peace!

Michael Miller
Last edited by millhouse23 on November 14th, 2009, 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 28th, 2004, 1:04 am

November 14th, 2009, 5:09 pm #7

Tons of "whys", and yes, the form is seen that way intially.

The old saying of "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." comes to mind.

Learn the form, explore it with your current knowledge, measure it against other styles or systems, compare and contrast, but don't expect the answers to be given when you haven't bothered to look for any at all.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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The old saying of "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." comes to mind."

I was thinking I would not do those moves, unless I was auditioning for a job at Benihana....


http://www.benihana.com/

Hitting a hard target with some of those moves might cause you to drop the weapon!!!!!!

Oh well, learn it, then choose whether or not you think it is practical.

Thanks for the insight.

Rich
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Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 14th, 2009, 5:56 pm #8

It's nice to see Mr. Tatum's viewpoint on this. So many different opinions from the seniors. I have formed my opinion based my experiences and own study/research.


Peace!

Michael Miller
Based on your limited time "at the art" you make this decision? Please.

This begs the question, do you know the form, or are you just basing your "opinion" on what you've seen?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

November 14th, 2009, 6:18 pm #9

If you want to learn how to use the knife, go to the Filipino fighters. Good idea maybe? Or go talk to the guys that have survived knife fights.

Borg
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

November 14th, 2009, 6:26 pm #10

Based on your limited time "at the art" you make this decision? Please.

This begs the question, do you know the form, or are you just basing your "opinion" on what you've seen?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Limited experience?

I have been "at" Kenpo for 20 years. I've been running a successful full-time school for four years now and still traveling eight times a year to train with great seniors of our art, and bring in my instructors 2-4 times a year at my school. I am constantly studying and researching to enhance my skill and knowledge. It's a never ending learning cycle.

It doesn't take 20 years to see and understand simple logic, Clyde. My training with Mr. Pick changed my views about the knife. My seminar training with some other knife experts (Rafy Pambuan being one) also opened my eyes. Believe what you want to believe, Clyde, but that form lacks in reality when it comes to the knife.

Keep in mind we are allowed to have a difference in opinion. What you view in your perception does not mean it is how it stands. Mr. Tatum is the only senior that had anything positive to say about Form 8 that I have been exposed to. The one's I work with have a different view.

It's okay for them to have a different view, but not okay for me? Sorry, Clyde that's not how it works in reality. We are to be self-thinkers--something I thought you believed in. Apparenly you are the hypocrite by believing everything your instructor says. I believe what I choose to believe based on the logic I find within everything.

We have different journey's, Clyde. I respect yours, now respect mine.

Michael Miller, CKF
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