Change in system

Change in system

Joined: September 9th, 2007, 3:45 pm

September 9th, 2007, 3:50 pm #1

I was wondering if anyones school is changing their system of testing? Our instructor has decided to add a red belt into his testing system. He is also having everyone graduate to the next belt at the same time. I have been doing this for about a year and it just seems like a real stirring up of the way Ed Parker taught.
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Joined: January 19th, 2007, 8:22 pm

September 9th, 2007, 4:02 pm #2

If your instructor is changing the way we test then so be it. The addition of a RED belt is ridiculous. We have 3 levels of brown already. As far as the testing in masses, thats all about money and not kenpo. Changing the testing is not so bad as long as he does not change the kenpo. Thats what everyone else( select wannabees) on this forum are doing, Changing the kenpo ED Parker created, They can't make it work the way it was taught so do a version they can handle. It all about hand speed ,no stances, slap and trap and NO POWER!!!!! They all sort of added a red belt to thier system also, or is that they all added alot of "RED Stripes" to thier style (LOL)
K Medic
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Joined: June 1st, 2005, 5:34 am

September 9th, 2007, 4:54 pm #3

You wrong.

You sound like a broken record, spouting nonsense that you hear others sasy thinking it makes you look good.
Personally I dont know who you are, but I would be willing to put my kenpo up against yours anyday.
Yes we have a red belt in our system.
Ours goes
Yellow-Orange-Purple-Blue-Green-Red-Brown 3rd-Brown 2nd-Brown 1st-Black

I am positive you will be happy with my display of Hand Speed, Stances, and Power.

"There were many other students who branched away from William Chow's
Kenpo Karate system. Each, however, had the greatest respect for
Chow's ability. He was not a tall man by any means, but fast, precise,
and powerful. He never wasted motion and reminded me many times of a
mongoose fighting a snake. He never exaggerated his defensive moves.
He allowed an opponent's punch to miss him by a -- slight move, a
miss, and bam! He'd be in at your vital area. He was good and I wanted
to learn as much as I could from him. I followed him, questioned him,
bugged him, and it paid off. He explained and stressed the need for
modifications and additions and introduced me to master key movements
which set me on the road to becoming a creative innovator. He knew
that Kenpo was only in its infant stage of modification. Like Mitose's
family who had changed the art they had learned to suit the needs of
the people of their time, Chow also felt there was a need to change
the art to meet the needs of the American people at this time.
I treasured the time I spent with him and the revelations I obtained
from our conversations and workouts. As I look back, I cannot thank
him enough for setting me on a path of logical and realistic thinking.
While the old methods of Mitose and Chow's father are now obsolete,
their contributions nevertheless are useful in terms of making‹d
analytical comparisons."

This quote is taken directly from a document written by Mr. Parker himself, and released by his son to be posted for the kenpo world to enjoy.

I think this would demonstrate that Mr. Parker was of a mindset of constantly adding to his Kenpo.
Other documents released and posted at the same time show he took information he felt valuable from others, including students to add to his kenpo.

Add to that that most Seniors who trained with Mr. Parker directly during different time periods and have stuck to teaching strictly what they learned from Mr. Parker teach a noticibly different product.

As far as mass testing goes, and stripe systems, how can you say with any authority that its wrong or does not work, or is only for money greedy mcdojos?

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Joined: September 9th, 2007, 3:45 pm

September 9th, 2007, 5:13 pm #4

I was wondering if anyones school is changing their system of testing? Our instructor has decided to add a red belt into his testing system. He is also having everyone graduate to the next belt at the same time. I have been doing this for about a year and it just seems like a real stirring up of the way Ed Parker taught.
I have been curious about how our system was being taught and looked and I'm not quite sure, but it doesn't seem like Ed Parker kenpo and that is what the instructor boast about. The red belt will fall in behind the brown belt but before black. From what I have been reading, Ed Parker's system was 16, 24 or 32 techniques to advance. I have my orange belt and will get my purple next month. There is at least a handful of techniques that are in the 16 technique system that I have not learned and my daughter who is a purple belt doesn't know them either. I guess I was just thinking if its a true kenpo system, there is some kind of guidance on what a person should be taught before advancing. It seems like the teaching is the broken area and not the learning. I am a firm believer that if you can't learn the technique, you shouldn't advance and there seems to be a lot of "gimmes" at my studio. I am not accusing the whole system of being broken. Just wanted to see if it was just the one that I attend.
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

September 9th, 2007, 6:16 pm #5

This is my point as I have seen with a few schools who I had to recently remove from our organization that wanted to "Do" Parker Kenpo but not "Learn" the system properly.
Kenpo is a sytsem and all of them let it be the 32,24 or the 16 version is functional if done correctly.
There are a few schools out there such as in the Texas area, and Tucson Arizona area but I won't say names (LOL) that not only advertise themselves as Parker Kenpo but have self promoted themselves as high rank and we have Green Belts who know more than they do.
This is why I like the fact both GM Michael Robert Pick and Mr.Tatum do teach the original 24 method but have an optional way of tailoring the acedemic level.Mr.Pick has always said there is the Acedemic way and the Combative Method to learn from.
We the CKF use a 10,12,16 and then 20 progression level as it works for my guys.I was taught in the 24 method back in the day, but changed when more kids came into the equation. Mr.Parker introduced the 16 level at the East Coast instructors camps as a method he was exploring along with the help of people like Tony Cogliandro who was a awesome administrator for the IKKA back then.
The problem arising is to much deviation to soon before becoming proficient in the Brown Belt and Black belt level so we have upcoming students doing the advance sets and Forms but because some of the techniques have been removed from the curriculum,we now have Kenpo doing the Advance Forms with no understanding of some of the techniques within the Forms. So in other words we have what is called "Meaningless Motion".
Ed Parker in the book "Infinite Insights" Volume 5 page 11...he says, To Learn a Form without knowing its true meaning or intent is like how to spell or pronounce a word without ever learning its definition...period!
Enjoy the Journey
Rather looking for A DESTINATION ALLOWS ONE TO GROW AND GAIN MORE WISDOM.....TCB
Sean Kelley
Last edited by 6410382 on September 9th, 2007, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 5th, 2005, 1:14 am

September 9th, 2007, 6:27 pm #6

I have been curious about how our system was being taught and looked and I'm not quite sure, but it doesn't seem like Ed Parker kenpo and that is what the instructor boast about. The red belt will fall in behind the brown belt but before black. From what I have been reading, Ed Parker's system was 16, 24 or 32 techniques to advance. I have my orange belt and will get my purple next month. There is at least a handful of techniques that are in the 16 technique system that I have not learned and my daughter who is a purple belt doesn't know them either. I guess I was just thinking if its a true kenpo system, there is some kind of guidance on what a person should be taught before advancing. It seems like the teaching is the broken area and not the learning. I am a firm believer that if you can't learn the technique, you shouldn't advance and there seems to be a lot of "gimmes" at my studio. I am not accusing the whole system of being broken. Just wanted to see if it was just the one that I attend.
Ed Parker published 24 techniques per belt in Infinite Insights. He approved the 16 technique systme Mr. Duffy proposed. And I could go on with a discussion on 32 techniques etc. However...

What are belts for? They serve several purposes. Probably the most important one is for the person wearing the belt. He or she should be proud of the belt they've earned and anxious to continue to progress to the next level. For others in the studio, they can see by your belt what you should know or about how long you've been in the system. It's a ready reference system for students to know who knows what and where respect has been earned.

When you travel outside your studio, others have an expectation of your knowledge and ability. I expect a few things from fellow black belts when at a seminar.

They should know kenpo techniques. I don't really care if they know 150, 154, or 157 and I really don't care if they know the extensions. However, they ought to be able to do five swords, thundering hammers, or marriage of the rams without the seminar leader needing to give a refresher course.

I expect a fellow black belt to know his forms through form 4. If he knows five and all the sets, great. I realize that some make sets manditory and some use them as a tool to develop basics and only assign them to those who need it. OK. The basics they demonstrate in the forms should be solid.

They should move like a black belt. Stances and posture should be good without leaning and without a lot of slop - I don't care how long you've been off the mat. Their strikes should have focus and control.

He should have the key concepts down. In short, a black belt shouldn't need the belt to convince me he has his act together.

Below BB, I don't much care. There is so much variety from one studio to the next that I'm not going to try to figure it out. One studio adds extra stripes, another studio has more than 3 levels of brown - I don't care. If your studio has pink belts, chartreuse or mauve with taupe dots on it, I don't care. If you have two kenpo studios in near proximity, you might want to be on the same page but that is your business.

Some guys will insist that you do it by the book. OK. That's the way they should teach it and that's the way they should promote their students.

If you have a studio and promote one of your students to red belt or rainbow or puce, it is your credibility on the line, not mine. When I promote someone, there won't be any doubt about it and the colors will look familiar. What you do in your studio - up to you.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
Peterson_charlie@hotmail.com
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Joined: March 10th, 2005, 6:38 pm

September 9th, 2007, 7:45 pm #7

This is my point as I have seen with a few schools who I had to recently remove from our organization that wanted to "Do" Parker Kenpo but not "Learn" the system properly.
Kenpo is a sytsem and all of them let it be the 32,24 or the 16 version is functional if done correctly.
There are a few schools out there such as in the Texas area, and Tucson Arizona area but I won't say names (LOL) that not only advertise themselves as Parker Kenpo but have self promoted themselves as high rank and we have Green Belts who know more than they do.
This is why I like the fact both GM Michael Robert Pick and Mr.Tatum do teach the original 24 method but have an optional way of tailoring the acedemic level.Mr.Pick has always said there is the Acedemic way and the Combative Method to learn from.
We the CKF use a 10,12,16 and then 20 progression level as it works for my guys.I was taught in the 24 method back in the day, but changed when more kids came into the equation. Mr.Parker introduced the 16 level at the East Coast instructors camps as a method he was exploring along with the help of people like Tony Cogliandro who was a awesome administrator for the IKKA back then.
The problem arising is to much deviation to soon before becoming proficient in the Brown Belt and Black belt level so we have upcoming students doing the advance sets and Forms but because some of the techniques have been removed from the curriculum,we now have Kenpo doing the Advance Forms with no understanding of some of the techniques within the Forms. So in other words we have what is called "Meaningless Motion".
Ed Parker in the book "Infinite Insights" Volume 5 page 11...he says, To Learn a Form without knowing its true meaning or intent is like how to spell or pronounce a word without ever learning its definition...period!
Enjoy the Journey
Rather looking for A DESTINATION ALLOWS ONE TO GROW AND GAIN MORE WISDOM.....TCB
Sean Kelley
Are you talking about me? You were not very specific, so it is difficult to know exactly who you are talking about. Just wondering, because casting such a wide net means you are insulting many people you don't intend to. Unless of course you meant to insult everyone in Texas, then well, it makes sense.

I think times have changed drastically since you came up in the system. Knowledge and training methods are much easier to come by now. To say one black belt is better than another because they know more "things" pertaining to the system is narrow minded. I believe application of skill is much more important. For example I have not bothered to learn form 7, and I probably will not, yet I am more than willing to test my stick skills against someone who uses form 7 as their training method. I believe I have been taught a better way to develop the skill set required to use a stick. If my skill with a club or stick is much better than that particular black belt, would you still say they are better because they know form 7?

Another example-

What if the system has been spread out through more belt colors, because more information has been added, training drills to learn, etc.? What if a good ground flow has been added in an attempt to develop real self defense skills, which will enable a kenpoist to get up safely from the ground? Because of these added drills the level of skill at each belt level has been increased. Maybe a student has complete mastery of 50 techniques and that student can apply them naturally and smoothly in real time with no problem. Yet your student knows more techniques, but is still struggling to use them in real time, with resistance applied? Which student is better? Your definition implies that because yours knows more things, yours is better? Better at what? Memorizing things quickly?
Who would you rather have on your side in a dark alley?

Just some questions.

Have fun training,
Troy
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

September 9th, 2007, 8:46 pm #8

If your instructor is changing the way we test then so be it. The addition of a RED belt is ridiculous. We have 3 levels of brown already. As far as the testing in masses, thats all about money and not kenpo. Changing the testing is not so bad as long as he does not change the kenpo. Thats what everyone else( select wannabees) on this forum are doing, Changing the kenpo ED Parker created, They can't make it work the way it was taught so do a version they can handle. It all about hand speed ,no stances, slap and trap and NO POWER!!!!! They all sort of added a red belt to thier system also, or is that they all added alot of "RED Stripes" to thier style (LOL)
K Medic
I inserted a red between Green and Brown. I did it to add to the system, not take away. I enjoy the control manipulations of jujutsu, some of the kicking skills out of TKD (not the McDojo version, but the older stuff); throws from judo, combinations and training drills from kickboxing (American and Muay Thai); and fundamental grappling skills of BJJ. When I taught vigorously, I used the red belt as a dual function hiatus from kenpo belt progression.

First, it gave them a chance to get off the "what's next? Teach me another form!" bandwagon, and simmer for a spell with what they've already learned. Sitting with the old actually provides more oportunity for skill development than learning something new.

Second, it gave them a chance to cement some simple fighting skills that augment kenpo nicely. Not that there's anything wrong with kenpo, I just like my guys to have choice. A jab/cross combo followed by an O-Sotos throw, mount, and pin, has fewer legal ramifications than does sticking your finger in their eye, breaking their knee, then chopping them in the throat on the way down.

I, too, will be glad to dialogue kenpo skills on the mat for comparative purposes. Then we can judo, or kickbox, or grapple on top of it.
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Joined: May 24th, 2005, 8:31 pm

September 9th, 2007, 8:54 pm #9

I was wondering if anyones school is changing their system of testing? Our instructor has decided to add a red belt into his testing system. He is also having everyone graduate to the next belt at the same time. I have been doing this for about a year and it just seems like a real stirring up of the way Ed Parker taught.
Insofar as 24 or 16 goes, I now realize that the 144 techs (orange - 1st black) is evenly divisible by 18 (18*8=144) rather than (16x4) + (20*4). I understand that 18 doesn't quite tie into the 8 pattern web of knowledge though.

I have recently began to teach little kids (as young as kindergarten plus 5 years of age) and added two levels before Yellow in order to teach simple basic movements in an attempt to get the ready to learn the cirriculum. The techs (e.g. Chinese Sword, Japanese Sword) are nothing more than movements that are found "all over the place" in EPAK. I'm moving my first experimental group on to the yellow cirriculum in two weeks...
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

September 9th, 2007, 9:08 pm #10

Are you talking about me? You were not very specific, so it is difficult to know exactly who you are talking about. Just wondering, because casting such a wide net means you are insulting many people you don't intend to. Unless of course you meant to insult everyone in Texas, then well, it makes sense.

I think times have changed drastically since you came up in the system. Knowledge and training methods are much easier to come by now. To say one black belt is better than another because they know more "things" pertaining to the system is narrow minded. I believe application of skill is much more important. For example I have not bothered to learn form 7, and I probably will not, yet I am more than willing to test my stick skills against someone who uses form 7 as their training method. I believe I have been taught a better way to develop the skill set required to use a stick. If my skill with a club or stick is much better than that particular black belt, would you still say they are better because they know form 7?

Another example-

What if the system has been spread out through more belt colors, because more information has been added, training drills to learn, etc.? What if a good ground flow has been added in an attempt to develop real self defense skills, which will enable a kenpoist to get up safely from the ground? Because of these added drills the level of skill at each belt level has been increased. Maybe a student has complete mastery of 50 techniques and that student can apply them naturally and smoothly in real time with no problem. Yet your student knows more techniques, but is still struggling to use them in real time, with resistance applied? Which student is better? Your definition implies that because yours knows more things, yours is better? Better at what? Memorizing things quickly?
Who would you rather have on your side in a dark alley?

Just some questions.

Have fun training,
Troy
Might allow me to pin point a location or 2...TCB....LOL Sean Kelley
PS: hope your not feeling guilty
here?
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