Notebooks Out, Plagiarists...

Notebooks Out, Plagiarists...

bzfgt
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bzfgt
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28 Apr 2017, 23:27 #1

There are two threads with this name (http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/inde ... c=315&st=0) so if this seems off-topic you should go to the other one! Of course they probably should be merged but I am going to divert this one, as there is a (hopefully brief) theme on my mind. Furthermore, I think I already started a thread years ago on this topic but I have no idea what it is called.

Brief thoughts and apologies if I've said all this before:

MES's admonition of plagiarism seems contradictory at first glance--this is a man who uses other people's lyrics and riffs constantly (all this is often noted on the Annotated Fall, but I'm sure few of you are conversant with my thoughts on the matter since even I am not--I think the main discussion of this idea is under "C 'n' C-Mithering," but the notes to that one are so long I don't want to go and check it).  

But this only seems a contradiction when we think that the difference between originality and copying is a mere question of which words we use (admittedly--again, "admittedly"--the choice of the word "plagiarists" is a bit confusing and militates against my argument, as the word has nothing to do with creativity and everything to do with the factors I am here claiming are irrelevant). In other words, when we forget that language is always already there waiting for us, as though we think we could create ideas ex nihilo and, as if by magic, find an intelligible lexicon for their expression.

Finding oneself in language always involves appropriation--taking something given and making it proper (i.e. one's own). In this sense I think MES's notion of "plagiarism" is quite nuanced and, of course, this is itself an example of what I'm talking about, using a given word but through it formulating a concept which says more than the OED will tell us about the word. Novelty for its own sake is more or less inert, creativity-wise, and many non-plagiarized songs are woefully unoriginal. It always seems to me these are the type of music(ians) MES rails against--it's not like he busts people for nicking a riff.

So I think the word "plagiarists" must not be taken literally, but seen as a sort of signpost of a broader and more nuanced set of concerns.

There is much more to be said about this but I just wanted to briefly formulate it as a kind of suggestion or provocation for more thought.
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deruntergeher
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Joined: 29 Mar 2013, 19:39

29 Apr 2017, 06:34 #2

bzfgt @ Apr 29 2017, 11:27 AM wrote:There are two threads with this name (http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/inde ... c=315&st=0) so if this seems off-topic you should go to the other one! Of course they probably should be merged but I am going to divert this one, as there is a (hopefully brief) theme on my mind. Furthermore, I think I already started a thread years ago on this topic but I have no idea what it is called.

Brief thoughts and apologies if I've said all this before:

MES's admonition of plagiarism seems contradictory at first glance--this is a man who uses other people's lyrics and riffs constantly (all this is often noted on the Annotated Fall, but I'm sure few of you are conversant with my thoughts on the matter since even I am not--I think the main discussion of this idea is under "C 'n' C-Mithering," but the notes to that one are so long I don't want to go and check it). 

But this only seems a contradiction when we think that the difference between originality and copying is a mere question of which words we use (admittedly--again, "admittedly"--the choice of the word "plagiarists" is a bit confusing and militates against my argument, as the word has nothing to do with creativity and everything to do with the factors I am here claiming are irrelevant). In other words, when we forget that language is always already there waiting for us, as though we think we could create ideas ex nihilo and, as if by magic, find an intelligible lexicon for their expression.

Finding oneself in language always involves appropriation--taking something given and making it proper (i.e. one's own). In this sense I think MES's notion of "plagiarism" is quite nuanced and, of course, this is itself an example of what I'm talking about, using a given word but through it formulating a concept which says more than the OED will tell us about the word. Novelty for its own sake is more or less inert, creativity-wise, and many non-plagiarized songs are woefully unoriginal. It always seems to me these are the type of music(ians) MES rails against--it's not like he busts people for nicking a riff.

So I think the word "plagiarists" must not be taken literally, but seen as a sort of signpost of a broader and more nuanced set of concerns.

There is much more to be said about this but I just wanted to briefly formulate it as a kind of suggestion or provocation for more thought.
Picasso said ' good artists borrow, great artists steal'. Cynically I think 'great artists' steal because they have to, to meet deadlines and fulfil contractual obligations.

The depressing future of big data will probably industrialise plagiarism as all our work will be monitored from inception by tech companies, any good ideas will be noted and lifted no doubt, who's to say you had the idea first ?
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dannyno
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dannyno
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Joined: 11 May 2004, 15:28

29 Apr 2017, 07:11 #3

deruntergeher @ Apr 29 2017, 07:34 AM wrote:
Picasso said ' good artists borrow, great artists steal'.
There's no evidence Picasso ever said this. The lines has been stolen on his behalf, ironically.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/

Dan
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bzfgt
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bzfgt
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Joined: 07 Dec 2012, 03:12

29 Apr 2017, 13:51 #4

deruntergeher @ Apr 29 2017, 02:34 AM wrote:
bzfgt @ Apr 29 2017, 11:27 AM wrote:There are two threads with this name (http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/inde ... c=315&st=0) so if this seems off-topic you should go to the other one! Of course they probably should be merged but I am going to divert this one, as there is a (hopefully brief) theme on my mind. Furthermore, I think I already started a thread years ago on this topic but I have no idea what it is called.

Brief thoughts and apologies if I've said all this before:

MES's admonition of plagiarism seems contradictory at first glance--this is a man who uses other people's lyrics and riffs constantly (all this is often noted on the Annotated Fall, but I'm sure few of you are conversant with my thoughts on the matter since even I am not--I think the main discussion of this idea is under "C 'n' C-Mithering," but the notes to that one are so long I don't want to go and check it). 

But this only seems a contradiction when we think that the difference between originality and copying is a mere question of which words we use (admittedly--again, "admittedly"--the choice of the word "plagiarists" is a bit confusing and militates against my argument, as the word has nothing to do with creativity and everything to do with the factors I am here claiming are irrelevant). In other words, when we forget that language is always already there waiting for us, as though we think we could create ideas ex nihilo and, as if by magic, find an intelligible lexicon for their expression.

Finding oneself in language always involves appropriation--taking something given and making it proper (i.e. one's own). In this sense I think MES's notion of "plagiarism" is quite nuanced and, of course, this is itself an example of what I'm talking about, using a given word but through it formulating a concept which says more than the OED will tell us about the word. Novelty for its own sake is more or less inert, creativity-wise, and many non-plagiarized songs are woefully unoriginal. It always seems to me these are the type of music(ians) MES rails against--it's not like he busts people for nicking a riff.

So I think the word "plagiarists" must not be taken literally, but seen as a sort of signpost of a broader and more nuanced set of concerns.

There is much more to be said about this but I just wanted to briefly formulate it as a kind of suggestion or provocation for more thought.
Picasso said ' good artists borrow, great artists steal'. Cynically I think 'great artists' steal because they have to, to meet deadlines and fulfil contractual obligations.

The depressing future of big data will probably industrialise plagiarism as all our work will be monitored from inception by tech companies, any good ideas will be noted and lifted no doubt, who's to say you had the idea first ?
Yeah, I think there's a good impulse somewhere behind the law that allows appropriation but not reproduction. Of course some artists don't recignoze the difference because aside from being stealers they're stealees...
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bzfgt
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bzfgt
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29 Apr 2017, 13:54 #5

dannyno @ Apr 29 2017, 03:11 AM wrote:
deruntergeher @ Apr 29 2017, 07:34 AM wrote:
Picasso said ' good artists borrow, great artists steal'.
There's no evidence Picasso ever said this. The lines has been stolen on his behalf, ironically.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/

Dan
I think this is from TS Eliot's "tradition and the individual talent" which may not be the right title. The linked doesn't say which essay but I swear I remember him saying that and that is the only essay of his I recall (the wording is slightly different as given in the article but I don't want to go in my history and find it or google the title of the essay, it's late/early man).
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dannyno
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dannyno
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29 Apr 2017, 15:49 #6

BTW, bzfgt, I think this topic is a bit of a cuckoo in the original nest. What I'll do is split out the original posts into their own thread.

Dan
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bzfgt
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bzfgt
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29 Apr 2017, 16:34 #7

OK, that would be fine.
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dannyno
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dannyno
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29 Apr 2017, 22:39 #8

So now we have three threads entitled "Notebooks Out Plagiarists". This seems satisfying.

Dan
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bzfgt
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bzfgt
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29 Apr 2017, 23:52 #10

dannyno @ Apr 29 2017, 06:49 PM wrote: Is there some overlap with your single-post thread here:
http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/inde ... opic=39598?

Dan
Seems like it. That must be the one I was thinking of.
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