Joined: Nov 25 2012, 07:22 PM

Re: Re:

Feb 4 2018, 04:59 PM #801

Chris Shaw wrote:
academichamilton wrote:
Chris Shaw wrote:
academichamilton wrote:
Chris Shaw wrote: Well, I suppose that's different... that's taste. But we have to look further than taste with the Fall, I think, because otherwise, yes, there's lots that is unpalatable. The instinct initially is always to switch off.

I read genre in the Fall in quotation marks. They use a heavy rock sound in the way I might, as a painter, incorporate a Philip Guston brushstroke. I don't think them using a too-rocky sound is meant as rock 'n' roll posturing. It shouldn't be viewed as them trying to be anarchic which I would agree could be off-putting and is a phase you go through but grow out of as a music listener.

The record is interesting primarily for the way they deal with structure and sequencing and the way genre and all that stuff is revisited as if in a dream... all cut to ribbons, but in a way that is done with great control, so that things pick up and slow down, get into a groove and then crash and burn before cooling only to reignite again. Sometimes it's played straight and so I think the changing up of the registers is very exciting.

There are traditions on this record... things we know... and these are necessary to anchor it... to stop it being too lofty or avant garde. But avant gardism is there in the form of collage. Collage, too, is a tradition by now and collage has been used as a formula to blow all the other formulas the Fall are using apart. MES's voice threading through the whole thing is a way to loosely tack it together. Stamp it as Fall product.

I think that drive to destroy the product they are creating is still evident and why, for me, the record is valuable and complicated.

.....

Yes, do come and visit when I'm open AH. It would be nice to meet you.
I absolutely hear what you are saying here. One further thought about guitar distortion though. The underlying issue with it is that it is of itself actually quite a smooth sound, a generic sound even and can, ironically, lack edge, danger if you like. So whilst I agree the way it is used is not silly posturing, there is something too safe and solid about it. Where I think it works best it is on tracks like Rememberance R where the distorted sound is quite weird and nasty (like the kind of guitar distortion a player might normally avoid), just like the vocals Smith does over it (there was one suggestion that some of that guitar on the track was actually Smith playing the guitar as it sounded so odd). So I'm trying to go beyond personal taste with my critique of it.
The sort of odd you want, AH, is for it to be less big and hot and red. You want subdued, cool and angular but you've got meaty, beaty, big and bouncy. Actually, you've got a range of sounds in there. I hope you can put aside what you want it to be based on what you think is edgy etc. (taste, conditioning etc.) and just enjoy this final offering. It's really great and knowing what its makers were going through, it's become fascinating and essential listening. 
I will certainly give it another go at some point since as you say, the circumstances of its making were extraordinary and now, new light will be thrown in it.   

I think you piviledge some different things in art compared to me, but you still priviledge them. One question - do you think your appreciation of creativity is essentially ideological? 
I don't understand your question, AH. 
Not very well phrased by me. As a modern fine artist, one very aware of the context and concepts of art and how this feeds / informs so much of what you actually do creatively, do you think this is part of how you appreciate music too? Is context, concept and idea ultimately more important than content? When you talk about NFE, you mention structure and relationships to other art, the challenge to our senses and sensibilites, playfulness of form etc. My first focus is always the sound, then the idea. Would you say it is the other way round for you?
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Chris Shaw
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Re: Re:

Feb 4 2018, 06:47 PM #802

academichamilton wrote:
Chris Shaw wrote:
academichamilton wrote:
Chris Shaw wrote:
academichamilton wrote:
Chris Shaw wrote: Well, I suppose that's different... that's taste. But we have to look further than taste with the Fall, I think, because otherwise, yes, there's lots that is unpalatable. The instinct initially is always to switch off.

I read genre in the Fall in quotation marks. They use a heavy rock sound in the way I might, as a painter, incorporate a Philip Guston brushstroke. I don't think them using a too-rocky sound is meant as rock 'n' roll posturing. It shouldn't be viewed as them trying to be anarchic which I would agree could be off-putting and is a phase you go through but grow out of as a music listener.

The record is interesting primarily for the way they deal with structure and sequencing and the way genre and all that stuff is revisited as if in a dream... all cut to ribbons, but in a way that is done with great control, so that things pick up and slow down, get into a groove and then crash and burn before cooling only to reignite again. Sometimes it's played straight and so I think the changing up of the registers is very exciting.

There are traditions on this record... things we know... and these are necessary to anchor it... to stop it being too lofty or avant garde. But avant gardism is there in the form of collage. Collage, too, is a tradition by now and collage has been used as a formula to blow all the other formulas the Fall are using apart. MES's voice threading through the whole thing is a way to loosely tack it together. Stamp it as Fall product.

I think that drive to destroy the product they are creating is still evident and why, for me, the record is valuable and complicated.

.....

Yes, do come and visit when I'm open AH. It would be nice to meet you.
I absolutely hear what you are saying here. One further thought about guitar distortion though. The underlying issue with it is that it is of itself actually quite a smooth sound, a generic sound even and can, ironically, lack edge, danger if you like. So whilst I agree the way it is used is not silly posturing, there is something too safe and solid about it. Where I think it works best it is on tracks like Rememberance R where the distorted sound is quite weird and nasty (like the kind of guitar distortion a player might normally avoid), just like the vocals Smith does over it (there was one suggestion that some of that guitar on the track was actually Smith playing the guitar as it sounded so odd). So I'm trying to go beyond personal taste with my critique of it.
The sort of odd you want, AH, is for it to be less big and hot and red. You want subdued, cool and angular but you've got meaty, beaty, big and bouncy. Actually, you've got a range of sounds in there. I hope you can put aside what you want it to be based on what you think is edgy etc. (taste, conditioning etc.) and just enjoy this final offering. It's really great and knowing what its makers were going through, it's become fascinating and essential listening. 
I will certainly give it another go at some point since as you say, the circumstances of its making were extraordinary and now, new light will be thrown in it.   

I think you piviledge some different things in art compared to me, but you still priviledge them. One question - do you think your appreciation of creativity is essentially ideological? 
I don't understand your question, AH. 
Not very well phrased by me. As a modern fine artist, one very aware of the context and concepts of art and how this feeds / informs so much of what you actually do creatively, do you think this is part of how you appreciate music too? Is context, concept and idea ultimately more important than content? When you talk about NFE, you mention structure and relationships to other art, the challenge to our senses and sensibilites, playfulness of form etc. My first focus is always the sound, then the idea. Would you say it is the other way round for you?
I don't think it's one or the other - it's both those things (if they aren't already the same thing anyway)... and it's perhaps many other things besides.
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huh
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Feb 4 2018, 09:45 PM #803

A perfect example of an artist's answer to an academic's question. ☺
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Joined: Nov 25 2012, 07:22 PM

Feb 4 2018, 09:59 PM #804

In what way is it perfect? 
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bzfgt
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Feb 4 2018, 10:00 PM #805

academichamilton wrote: In what way is it perfect? 
A veritable scholastic!
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huh
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Feb 5 2018, 12:54 PM #806

academichamilton wrote: In what way is it perfect? 
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Joined: Nov 25 2012, 07:22 PM

Feb 5 2018, 01:56 PM #807

huh wrote:
academichamilton wrote: In what way is it perfect? 
Right, that's clear as mud then. Dismiss.
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huh
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Re:

Feb 8 2018, 06:58 PM #808

huh wrote: Listened to it once, all the way through, loud, and with my ears wide open.

I don't like it any less than i expected, and in places it's so horrible it's sublime. And i can hear flashbacks to other eras, little bits of Cruiser's Creek, Jawbone, Oswald Defence Lawyer. It might even be a Jamboree Bag of Fall past, lots of snippets. It seems to have sidestepped the sound of the last decade at least, which largely bored me; there are exceptions: Dedication, or Bury, for instance, but generally i like the production and sonic variety more than any of their recent albums that i've bothered to listen to properly.

I don't understand the "is it metal" debate, i don't listen to music to pigeon-hole it... The Fall are always as specific as say, Faust, in their variety and approach and the net result is that they make their own context, always have, and always will. Saying that, i'd be very surprised if he makes another record; if Nine out of Ten isn't some sort of coda, or farewell, then i don't know what it is.

9/10 then.
My heart and I agree, my heart and I agree.
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Feb 16 2018, 03:43 PM #809

omg, as Paris Hilton once wrote, I love Couples vs Jobless so much....
Winterreise
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bzfgt
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Feb 16 2018, 11:59 PM #810

Mark E Smith Made Me Cry wrote: omg, as Paris Hilton once wrote, I love Couples vs Jobless so much....
Holy amphiboly Batman
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misterrogers
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Feb 17 2018, 12:23 PM #811

Tried twice more since the d/d.
Still feel the same.
Like ep 1 Brillo my fave still...
Don’t dig ep 2 much at all

And I can see the whole deal with 9/10, yes.
But I still can’t sit through it.  Bores the tits off of me, sorry I have to be honest...

Still looking forward to whatever follows if it does ....
Bought everything for a long time and will continue so long as we don’t drift into posthumous capt beefheart crap live tapes land..lot of shady quality live stuff there for the captain after he died....

Let’s all hope for Quality control here moving forward ...
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Joined: Aug 7 2013, 06:36 PM

Feb 17 2018, 12:49 PM #812

misterrogers wrote:  so long as we don’t drift into posthumous capt beefheart crap live tapes land..lot of shady quality live stuff there for the captain after he died....
I'd like to think we had all that in Smith's lifetime! As long as we avoid anything by Ozit, I suspect we'll be fine.
http://hippriestess.tumblr.com/

Blog revived for MES tribute - "Fantastic Life: The 20 Greatest Fall Songs In No Order Whatsoever."
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jkn
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Mar 4 2018, 10:16 PM #813

This may well have been covered before, but I haven't seen it: has there been any recent speculation about the origin of the 'New Facts Emerge' title (backdrop, etc.)?

I am wondering it this might have referred to a medical diagnosis, for instance.

    J^n
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dannyno
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Mar 5 2018, 05:53 PM #814

jkn wrote:This may well have been covered before, but I haven't seen it: has there been any recent speculation about the origin of the 'New Facts Emerge' title (backdrop, etc.)?

I am wondering it this might have referred to a medical diagnosis, for instance.

    J^n
I traced the history of the get well soon backdrop somewhere. The card appears in one of the photos on Pams Instagram.

Dan
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ZztrrkMan
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Re:

Mar 13 2018, 06:09 AM #815

The quality of this album makes MES passing even sadder for me, beyond the obvious loss of a human life, so much left in the tank musically as well.

Groundsboy has my current spot for favorite track on this album, fantastic. 
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stevoid
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Mar 14 2018, 11:17 PM #816

Yes Groundsboy is fantastic, a real grower. This album really kicks off for me from Couples vs Jobless, from then on it's up there with their best work.
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Joined: Sep 19 2013, 09:51 PM

Mar 15 2018, 04:02 PM #817

Sorry if I've missed it, but has anyone taken the time to get out the backmasking (that's what it's called right?) on Victoria Train Station Massacre? Is it just a repeat of the first vocals?
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ocelot
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Mar 15 2018, 07:40 PM #818

WrayWrayWrayWrayWrayWrayWrayWray wrote: Sorry if I've missed it, but has anyone taken the time to get out the backmasking (that's what it's called right?) on Victoria Train Station Massacre? Is it just a repeat of the first vocals?
It appears to be just that section of the track in reverse.
So, if you reverse the backwards section you just get a straight ahead version of the track. The vocal part is different from the first section. I like the fact that the reversed section vocals appear to say 'Scooby Doo' at one point.
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Joined: Sep 19 2013, 09:51 PM

Mar 20 2018, 11:07 PM #819

I love Anthony Fantano.

For some reason I was just sifting through his monthly 'fair-to-middling, meh' reviews and caught his take on NFE from last year:



He's wrong of course, but was pleased to see The Fall make any kind of appearance.
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dannyno
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popmatters.com review

Sep 19 2018, 07:11 AM #821

Review from popmatters.com by john L. Murphy which I haven't seen before, despite it being dated 6 August 2017:

https://www.popmatters.com/the-fall-new ... 84527.html

Dan
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