The hostile offspring phenomenon

The hostile offspring phenomenon

Joined: March 3rd, 2005, 2:52 am

May 16th, 2009, 4:13 pm #1

Last night at the Phoenix meetup at Regina Pancake's home, I talked to an Alcor insider who told me how a long-time Alcor member I knew had suffered from a mild stroke recently. His son moved him to another state (away from Arizona), and has interfered with Alcor's efforts to contact him.

After seeing how, because of my father's impairment, my sister has taken charge of his affairs with her power of attorney, I understand how this situation can happen to cryonicists with uncooperative relatives who lose the ability to make decisions for themselves. This sounds like another potentially lost cryonics patient thanks to family values, despite the well meaning talk about turning cryonics into an intergenerational project.

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Joined: July 1st, 2007, 8:16 am

May 16th, 2009, 5:54 pm #2

Mark Plus: “Last night at the Phoenix meetup at Regina Pancake's home, I talked to an Alcor insider who told me how a long-time Alcor member I knew had suffered from a mild stroke recently. His son moved him to another state (away from Arizona), and has interfered with Alcor's efforts to contact him.”

This Alcor member probably has some money in the bank and his offspring is determined to get it any way he can. Such offspring should be immediately disinherited and also a court order of protection against him issued, if it is possible in those circumstances.
This is a real danger facing many members of cryo providers. In January David Pizer proposed on Cryonet a solution for such problem. It is reprinted below:

X-Message-Number: 31363
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:33:35 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Protection for cryonicists

The Venturists Directors have been considering allowing the Society for
Venturism to hold power of attorney from cryoncists (for those cryonicists who
want to give it) to act on their behalf should they ever get in a similar
situation as some past cryonicists have found themselves in - mainly where
non-cryoncists or anti-cryoncists have legal control of their body.

If the idea becomes reality a cryonicst could give the Venturists power of
attorney in sickness or at legal death to make decisions for them. So if, for
instance, you ended up in a mental state where you could not assert your desire
to be frozen and there were others who legally had the right to make decisions
for you that were not going to get you frozen, we could take control and try to
see that your cryonics wishes were honored.

In some cases we might not be able to prevail. In some cases the relatives or
others might be able to outspend us, or other problems could come up. Giving
the Venturists power of attorney to try to help you is not a guarantee that we
can prevail. But it might make the difference in some cases.

You probably could give a similar power of attorney to the organization you are
paying to do your suspension but I think opponents would have a harder time
discrediting the Venturists (trying to get you frozen) for the main reason that
the Society for Venturism does not receive any money when you get suspended and
your suspension organization does.

People who do not understand why we want to be frozen and/or who are generally
not supportive of cryonics (maybe the judge or jury in your case) historically
have suspected the main reason cryonics companies exist is to make money - even
thought we have given evidence to them many times over that is not the main
reason, and not even a valid reason.

What we are looking for now are ideas on how the cryonics public would like to
see this set up, or if they even like the idea at all.

Should be offer this service. Should we ask that when someone gives us power of
attorney to try to enforce their cryonics wishes that we ask for a donation,
(if they can afford it), to go into a general fund to build up a cash reserve to
be available if we need to hire an attorney to help out?

Also, there are many types of power of attorney forms. One that I think we
might need may be called "durable" in that it is still in effect after the giver
dies. I don't know much about this.

Also, we might also accept power of attorney to make medical decisions so that
relatives could not keep a patient on life support while their brain is
decomposing. After all, the main organ we want to preserve is the brain.

Anyhow please feel free to send your comments to Cryonet, that is where we will
monitor the discussion and reply. You can copy this and post it in other forums
if you like but ask others to reply in Cryonet.

Sincerely,

David Pizer
For the Society for Venturism
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Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

May 16th, 2009, 6:02 pm #3



usually this sort of temporary order is done in certain types of courts, depending on the state. Family law courts, perhaps.

futhermore, it is quite likely that a cryonicist could petition a court in whatever state he is in at the moment for a temporary protective order concerning power of atty.

If so, a cryo could select a particular location to get that order from a judge who has been proven to be friendly to cryonics. A judge in scottsdale might be a good choice, as Alcor has been given a lot of publicity there.

The cryo, if he thinks that his family might take away his right of self determination, might relocate to where a friendly judge is located and then petition the court for a protective order and assignment of POA to the Venturists.

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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

May 17th, 2009, 4:28 pm #4

to follow the arrangements specified in the deceased's will?

Oh, sorry, guess not!
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Joined: May 17th, 2009, 5:13 pm

May 17th, 2009, 10:42 pm #5

If family members are trusted by the "deceased" to handle these arrangements correctly, then yes they do have the duty to fulfill that trust. Otherwise whomever the "deceased" trusted in their stead has said obligation. In cryonics, where the "deceased" is hoping to remain in a condition that may actually turn out to be alive, there is sometimes a need (while you still have the chance) to find an emotionally unbiased party who will make sure their actual wishes are respected.

Some cryonicists have families that can be trusted not to kill them dead the moment current science is unable to handle their condition. Some do not. It is a real tragedy when trusted family members betray the trust of someone who is utterly helpless to defend themselves. The utter moral depravity of such an action is difficult to explain, but sadly happens all the time. Ted Williams got lucky, and may survive... Some are not so fortunate.
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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

May 18th, 2009, 6:25 pm #6

to follow the arrangements specified in the deceased's will?

Oh, sorry, guess not!
I'm glad to see TWrelated has a sense of humor about this topic!

I doubt wills come into play, very often, at the time of legal death. Usually whatever "next of kin" is readily available has the power to make any and all decisions, even going against the expressed personal wishes of an individual. I've seen it, time and time again, in my hospital experience. Sadly, it seems, once a person is no longer capable of expressing his/her wishes, a close relative imposes theirs!
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Joined: July 1st, 2007, 8:16 am

May 18th, 2009, 7:54 pm #7

Melody: “I doubt wills come into play, very often, at the time of legal death. Usually whatever "next of kin" is readily available has the power to make any and all decisions, even going against the expressed personal wishes of an individual.”

I have seen many times when children stole parents’ assets while the parents were still alive. I guess it is not so unusual for children to prevent parent’s cryopreservation if they can profit by doing so, and they even think that the cryo provider is just a charlatan who is taking what should be their money. The cryo providers want to make sure that they get pay for the cryopreservation and anything else, like asset protection of their customers is irrelevant. Someone correct me if it is not so, but my understanding is that Alcor worked on a solution to this, but Saul Kent put a quick end to it.
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Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

May 19th, 2009, 9:18 am #8

If family members are trusted by the "deceased" to handle these arrangements correctly, then yes they do have the duty to fulfill that trust. Otherwise whomever the "deceased" trusted in their stead has said obligation. In cryonics, where the "deceased" is hoping to remain in a condition that may actually turn out to be alive, there is sometimes a need (while you still have the chance) to find an emotionally unbiased party who will make sure their actual wishes are respected.

Some cryonicists have families that can be trusted not to kill them dead the moment current science is unable to handle their condition. Some do not. It is a real tragedy when trusted family members betray the trust of someone who is utterly helpless to defend themselves. The utter moral depravity of such an action is difficult to explain, but sadly happens all the time. Ted Williams got lucky, and may survive... Some are not so fortunate.
from what I am hearing, doctors will respect the wishes of the dead as expressed in a perfectly legal living will, and go with the desires of the next of kin even if contrary to the living will.
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Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

May 19th, 2009, 12:23 pm #9

I meant to say:

from what I am hearing, doctors will NOT respect the wishes of the dead as expressed in a perfectly legal living will, and INSTEAD WILL go with the desires of the next of kin even if contrary to the living will.
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

May 19th, 2009, 4:54 pm #10

If family members are trusted by the "deceased" to handle these arrangements correctly, then yes they do have the duty to fulfill that trust. Otherwise whomever the "deceased" trusted in their stead has said obligation. In cryonics, where the "deceased" is hoping to remain in a condition that may actually turn out to be alive, there is sometimes a need (while you still have the chance) to find an emotionally unbiased party who will make sure their actual wishes are respected.

Some cryonicists have families that can be trusted not to kill them dead the moment current science is unable to handle their condition. Some do not. It is a real tragedy when trusted family members betray the trust of someone who is utterly helpless to defend themselves. The utter moral depravity of such an action is difficult to explain, but sadly happens all the time. Ted Williams got lucky, and may survive... Some are not so fortunate.
I guess that depends which version of his wishes you adhere too...

"It is a real tragedy when trusted family members betray the trust of someone who is utterly helpless to defend themselves. The utter moral depravity of such an action is difficult to explain, but sadly happens all the time."

Yes, whichever way the betrayal goes. In the long run, it probably doesn't matter one iota.
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