Re: We’re getting slammed hard

Re: We’re getting slammed hard

Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

February 3rd, 2009, 11:41 pm #1

Continuing on from:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/t ... lamed+hard

FD wrote: "I can't blame people after looking at stuff from idiots like Ross, for needing a moment of levity. The "cryonics officials" who don't like the freedom of expression on CF are one of the biggest problems in cryonics. Unfortunately, they seem to pervade Alcor's board. Type A as in Anal, for sure. Anyone who thinks the entire CF forum is "fake" has no idea of the magnitude of posts here (I do, I archive it). It would take dozens of people to "fake" a forum of this size. As to "unproductive rants" and "lathering", can't we just have a sense of humor? Not every thread has to be totally serious, and sometimes a serious one will start out that way and then people just have to let go and vent."

My concern beyond those labeling cryonics as a religion or cult is, when a blogger tries to impress on others that he is a member of cryonics, where a number of people are fairly confident that he/she is a not a cryonicist, or when a non-cryonicist blogger characterizes and labels a pseudo-cryonicist negatively as though they are speaking to a real cryonicist, or where women are held out as objects in an environment that lacks proper moderating, etc.

I know a reasonable number of people involved in cryonics and it has been a long time since I heard anything positive from them about Cold Filter. This line of thinking is not restricted to a given company, those in a position of authority, employees of cryonics, or even members of cryonics. This sentiment is broad and fairly comprehensive. The bottom line is Cold Filter has a bad reputation.

Personally, if someone feels that they have a legitimate issue or gripe in association with cryonics, I hope they will work in a constructive fashion to encourage progressive thinking and change. The problem is if an individual or blogger does nothing but gripe, people turnoff and tune out. There seems to be an endless amount of time to complain, but I've noticed laziness sets in quickly when there is encouragement to do some actual work.

What I want as a member is to know that if I fly back home to Ohio for vacation some year or decade from now, where I'm in need of urgent life-threatening care, that I will be able to receive proper cryo-medical care in at least one of the major hospitals within the state. Maybe it is a farfetched dream that will never occur within my life time or yours, but I believe this is one goal we should work towards with more of a concerted effort; ultimately, this will require or result in some form of oversight or regulation.

Mortuaries and morticians are of value to cryonics, but I don't believe they can provide proper medical care or oversight. A better path in my view is purchasing off-the-shelf medical equipment and supplies, building a closer working relationship with practicing medical professionals and existing corporations with established track records, and look to those professionals to help make the transition. On the other hand, if morticians are open to going to med school, I would consider that a positive development.
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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

February 4th, 2009, 6:08 am #2

Mathew, CF is not going to go away just because you and a few anal-retentives in cryo org management think it is a threat to their superiority.

As to any threat to the public, CF is largely under the radar. The last I checked, it isn't googleable even to the extent that people's "blogs" are. Anybody has to dig really deep to even find a reference to an obscure Network54 forum. And if they do that, D*g bless 'em. I think that anyone has the right to know what is really going on. Especially people who join up with cryo orgs. I could say more on that here, but won't. But if you think people should not know, tell us why!

Trouble is - the people who object to the free and open discussion on CF, are largely the same people who are in charge of the information flow at their cryo orgs, and stifle it to the best of their abilities.

And sometimes we just gotta have fun. Maybe some newbies like to have fun too, and could see that we are real people, not nerds with pinecones up our BLEEPs like the "reasonable number of people involved in cryonics" you mention who allegedly think CF has a "bad reputation". You are obviously not talking to the same people I sometimes do, who are cheering us on to bring some sunlight into the dark caverns of cryonics orgs.

Think it through again, Mathew. And tell your big boss to do it also.

Cheers,

FD

P.S. Ask your little boss what she is doing to get you cryonics care if you are in a hospital in Ohio. Well, or even in Florida! Let us know in detail here; we love details! What are you allowed/not allowed to do about that there, as a paid employee in an ever-shrinking economy? FD
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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

February 4th, 2009, 2:17 pm #3

Please:) No one has ever suggested to me that they wished Cold Filter should go away. Don't tell me just because an anonymous blogger claims they are a member of cryonics everyone else should believe them. BTW, Google is my principle method for finding this place if I don't readily have direct access to CF: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... 4+cryonics
Last edited by MathewSullivan on February 4th, 2009, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: August 25th, 2005, 8:19 pm

February 4th, 2009, 3:57 pm #4

Mathew,

You failed to address FD's last comment. Let me refresh your memory:

"P.S. Ask your little boss what she is doing to get you cryonics care if you are in a hospital in Ohio. Well, or even in Florida! Let us know in detail here; we love details! What are you allowed/not allowed to do about that there, as a paid employee in an ever-shrinking economy? FD"

How about it Mathew?

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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

February 4th, 2009, 10:25 pm #5

Sorry, but I try to avoid speaking on behalf of others; although, I will say that I am grateful to have had an opportunity to work with a number of practicing medical professionals in recent times, as well as, access to the SCPC Stöckert Centrifugal Pump which is used in top cardiac centers. As a replacement to the ATP, all the components are off-the-shelf, including the holder for the Synthesis C with integrated soft-shell reservoir and filter. Compared to a lab roller pump, the centrifugal pump does not pump bolus air. If the line is occluded before or after the centrifugal pump or if we run out of solution, the pump simply spins in place and a flow meter alarm goes off. It also has built in alarms for pressure and bubble detection. After having to work with a lab pump for many years, the SCPC is a dream machine, and the usage of the ATP should be discouraged. The downside is we have another acronym to learn, so I figured out a way to help me remember, South Carolina Personal Computer.

You might find it interesting that the medical community is performing pre-mortem cooling in support of organ transplantation. One advantage cryonics brings to the table is; we can offer hospitals profit with less liability - aside from someone slipping and falling to the floor.

Until Field Vitrification is a viable option, having hospitals willing to make room for these procedures does not matter if we don't have the proper infrastructure in place. Although, one might be able to argue that legally performing pre-cooling is worth exploring in being able to provide for the initial step in our procedures. I also believe the team should be medically qualified, licensed, as well as be practicing in their field to better interface with medical establishments. In addition, attorneys need to be involved to work out the cryo-medical language to ensure it is legally secure.

Working with medical professionals has at times brought forth new challenges, but I don't think we should give up until the torch has been successfully passed. In the mean time, those who are working on new cryoprotectants can focus on gaining a better foothold in published literature; some have argued this needs to come first, but I believe we should work on it in parallel. I see no need for a prototyped infrastructure to wait indefinitely until a cryobiologist(s) makes the big breakthrough. As with having access to the SCPC and practicing medical professionals, I see opportunities to improve care that is provided to cryonics patients irrespective of the next cryo-medical breakthrough.
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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

February 5th, 2009, 3:44 am #6

So is the SCPC going to be used on SA's patients, or not? You are ambiguous here. It does sound GREAT tho. In another paragraph you say you "see opportunities" for that to happen. What is wrong with your management??!!

You never answered my question, also re-asked by Desert Rat, as to what kind of support you are getting from your superiors to get anything meaningful done.

Your Friend,

FD

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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

February 5th, 2009, 4:19 am #7

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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

February 5th, 2009, 12:36 pm #8

The image of the SA standby cases is meaningless propaganda, (just like most of the other images on their website). Yes, they have those containers filled with "stuff," (for lack of a better word), but it's about twice as much as they need to be carrying around; most of the personnel doesn't know how to use the medical equipment properly; and it's probably illegal for laymen to carry what's in that medications kit across state lines, (or even down the street, for that matter).
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Joined: January 25th, 2007, 2:45 pm

February 5th, 2009, 12:52 pm #9

There's a picture of the SCPC below that (4th image from the right), click it and there's a description.

http://www.suspendedinc.com/equipment.html
Last edited by CF_Moderator on February 5th, 2009, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

February 5th, 2009, 2:20 pm #10

Sorry, but I try to avoid speaking on behalf of others; although, I will say that I am grateful to have had an opportunity to work with a number of practicing medical professionals in recent times, as well as, access to the SCPC Stöckert Centrifugal Pump which is used in top cardiac centers. As a replacement to the ATP, all the components are off-the-shelf, including the holder for the Synthesis C with integrated soft-shell reservoir and filter. Compared to a lab roller pump, the centrifugal pump does not pump bolus air. If the line is occluded before or after the centrifugal pump or if we run out of solution, the pump simply spins in place and a flow meter alarm goes off. It also has built in alarms for pressure and bubble detection. After having to work with a lab pump for many years, the SCPC is a dream machine, and the usage of the ATP should be discouraged. The downside is we have another acronym to learn, so I figured out a way to help me remember, South Carolina Personal Computer.

You might find it interesting that the medical community is performing pre-mortem cooling in support of organ transplantation. One advantage cryonics brings to the table is; we can offer hospitals profit with less liability - aside from someone slipping and falling to the floor.

Until Field Vitrification is a viable option, having hospitals willing to make room for these procedures does not matter if we don't have the proper infrastructure in place. Although, one might be able to argue that legally performing pre-cooling is worth exploring in being able to provide for the initial step in our procedures. I also believe the team should be medically qualified, licensed, as well as be practicing in their field to better interface with medical establishments. In addition, attorneys need to be involved to work out the cryo-medical language to ensure it is legally secure.

Working with medical professionals has at times brought forth new challenges, but I don't think we should give up until the torch has been successfully passed. In the mean time, those who are working on new cryoprotectants can focus on gaining a better foothold in published literature; some have argued this needs to come first, but I believe we should work on it in parallel. I see no need for a prototyped infrastructure to wait indefinitely until a cryobiologist(s) makes the big breakthrough. As with having access to the SCPC and practicing medical professionals, I see opportunities to improve care that is provided to cryonics patients irrespective of the next cryo-medical breakthrough.
Mathew: "Sorry, but I try to avoid speaking on behalf of others; although, I will say that I am grateful to have had an opportunity to work with a number of practicing medical professionals in recent times, as well as, access to the SCPC Stöckert Centrifugal Pump which is used in top cardiac centers. As a replacement to the ATP, all the components are off-the-shelf, including the holder for the Synthesis C with integrated soft-shell reservoir and filter."

A soft-shell reservoir is great, provided a qualified perfusionist will be pumping the case. I sat SA's staff members down with the soft-shell system they had when I arrived on the scene, and used a bucket of water as a "patient." As I recall, only ONE of the staff members could run the system without emptying the bag, or filling it to the point of bursting. When I pulled the "venous" line out of the bucket and introduced air to the circuit, (filling their soft-shell reservoirs with air), ALL of them had extreme difficulties getting rid of that air. Since they were using an occlusive roller pump, had there been a real patient, and no perfusionist standing by their side, that air would most likely have been introduced to the patient.

Unfortunately, I doubt the perfusionists SA has on retainer have been told a salesclerk, or a metal fabricator, might be the "surgeon" doing the femoral cannulation. Even funeral directors aren't accustomed to having to worry about an air-tight cannulation, so the perfusionists may be dealing with a lot of air being introduced to the circuit, via the femoral vein cannulation. They'll be able to handle it, but amateurs would not be able to, which is one of the reasons I went with a hardshell reservoir, (which makes it infinitely more easy to handle air), when I was told we couldn't have a pool of qualified perfusionists, at SA. One other reason is that soft-shell reservoirs aren't typically combined with occlusive (roller) pumps; they are most often used with centrifugal pumps.


Mathew: "Compared to a lab roller pump, the centrifugal pump does not pump bolus air. If the line is occluded before or after the centrifugal pump or if we run out of solution, the pump simply spins in place and a flow meter alarm goes off."

Duh. SA had a qualified perfusionist BEG them to use centrifugal pumps, nearly three years ago, (that would be me). I pointed out, over and over and over again, that using a centrifugal pump would virtually eliminate the possibility of pumping air to patients. I wrote about my suggestions to SA, (in regard to centrifugal pumps), on this forum, back in September 2007:

"One of my very first suggestions to SA, as a consultant, was the use of centrifugal pumps for the washout procedure. When I received an email from SA, stating they were buying four new occlusive pumps (roller pumps) the following day, I sent "Urgent" emails to Charles and Bary, pleading with them to discuss this with me further, before making the purchase. Charles told me he had purchased four occlusive pumps (prior to my arrival at SA), and then was told by someone else that the pumps were not capable of flowing high enough, so he was desperate to purchase four more. (I'm not positive, but I think he told me the ones he originally purchased flowed up to 3LPM, (which would have been adequate), but he replaced them with some that flowed more than 10LPM, which is ridiculous."
http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/m ... nformation

As for Harris' remarks about HES being difficult to pump in the cold, in that thread, I'm familiar with SA's washout solution, having pumped it at temperatures near zero. (Actually, we pumped pure Viaspan at temperatures near zero, without any difficulties.) And, I ran even the most viscous vitrification solution, at temperatures near zero, and at high flows, through a centrifugal pump, without any problem, at CI.


Mathew: "It also has built in alarms for pressure and bubble detection."

Just SA, (whose manager claims not to read Cold Filter), following even more suggestions I, and others, made a long damn time ago. Funny that I had to give up my salary, to have anyone there take my advice.


Mathew: "After having to work with a lab pump for many years, the SCPC is a dream machine, and the usage of the ATP should be discouraged. The downside is we have another acronym to learn, so I figured out a way to help me remember, South Carolina Personal Computer.

"ATP" or "Air Transportable Perfusion Circuit" are amongst the most idiotic terms I've ever heard, and it's something I complained about, endlessly, while at SA. I've also written about it on this forum, and sent letters to people at Alcor, asking them to consider using terms medical professionals wouldn't find ridiculous. The "ATP" was no more "air-transportable" than anything else that can be carried onto an airplane. ("Air-transportable surgical gloves," "air-transportable golf pros," "air-transportable chewing gum,"...) It was a deceptive term, perhaps intended to lead people to believe they were capable of performing perfusion in flight.


Mathew: "Working with medical professionals has at times brought forth new challenges..."

The greatest challenge has been to convince the self-taught, self-proclaimed "cryonics experts" that medical professionals are more capable of performing medical procedures than they. (I'm not referring to Mathew.)

Mathew: "...but I don't think we should give up until the torch has been successfully passed.

THIS is one of the reasons I admire Mathew. Unlike many others in cryonics, (who are either unwilling to give up their "expert" status, or their salaries), Mathew recognizes the value of someone having the appropriate education and clinical experience needed to deliver the medical procedures in cryonics. Unlike the so-called "cryonics experts" would have people believe, those procedures are NOT a great departure from procedures that have been successfully used in conventional medicine, for decades.
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