maybe start another cryonics facility?

maybe start another cryonics facility?

Joined: June 8th, 2009, 3:02 am

June 13th, 2009, 9:04 pm #1

Luke once thoughtfully wrote:

"Good luck and best wishes. If you move to Michigan near CI, the same trick would be just as valuable. I'd stick with Alcor for now if I were you, depending whether I liked the area... I don't see a huge difference between the two options, although I could be wrong. There does need to be a physical community for people who are older and more likely to need cryosuspension soon, as that would increase chances (and preservation quality) quite a bit. For now, best to scout out the rest homes and hospices for the most cryo-friendly ones, just in case."

Fortunately I'm still physically fit...growing old and lonely, but this will be worked out in time I'm sure. I do not like the Phoenix area much, although it may be an o.k. location for Alcor.

My question, already asked once is if anyone has seriously considered starting yet another cryonics facility in a different geographic area and using some of the faults we might find in the present ones to make something better happen.

It is definitely discouraging to see all the conspiracy theory discussion and lack of trust, etc. It is particularly disconcerting to new members.
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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

June 14th, 2009, 2:08 am #2

... is, that there is really not enough business, enough of a market for cryonics, to justify as many as two separate cryonics providers. The biggest reason there are now two such major players began decades ago from attitudes of competitiveness and divisiveness, many of which attitudes endure to this day.

Both organizations started out on shoestrings, by very few people, with nearly no equipment/facilities, and a handful at most of members. Both grew from there. Today such a startup would be ridiculed out of the cryonics community, akin to how Jonathan Despres' vaporcryonic "business" got beat down.

That's the way it looks to me from here,

FD
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Joined: May 17th, 2009, 5:13 pm

June 14th, 2009, 4:46 am #3

I think Oregon Cryonics is starting as a community group and planning to eventually branch into the cryostasis side of things. But at present it is an educational organization, that works together with CI. The founder Jorden Sparks is a CI director.

http://www.oregoncryo.com/

So maybe that is the optimal path. Start out as a training and local support group that works with an existing org, yet have the goal of forming your own facilities if and when you get big enough. Perhaps I eventually could get something going in Idaho that way.

I also think expanding social services among cryos is an excellent idea. It doesn't all need to be done by the same organization that does the preservations. Charitable work done in communities by cryo motivated groups would be a good way to increase acceptance and build membership.
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Joined: June 8th, 2009, 3:02 am

June 14th, 2009, 5:01 pm #4

... is, that there is really not enough business, enough of a market for cryonics, to justify as many as two separate cryonics providers. The biggest reason there are now two such major players began decades ago from attitudes of competitiveness and divisiveness, many of which attitudes endure to this day.

Both organizations started out on shoestrings, by very few people, with nearly no equipment/facilities, and a handful at most of members. Both grew from there. Today such a startup would be ridiculed out of the cryonics community, akin to how Jonathan Despres' vaporcryonic "business" got beat down.

That's the way it looks to me from here,

FD
Yes, there are financial considerations, of course. These might be even magnified by today's economy.
I posted to the Oregon cryonics chat site the idea of attempting to associate a cryonics facility with some major university medical center. Although there would be bureaucratic problems I am not addressing, it might provide more acceptance of cryonics if it were viewed as a part of medical research and teaching. It might also be a means of providing some funding, since, for instance, medical students might use the facility in their studies. Being "hidden away" in a large medical educational facility might provide more security from malicious intent and better protect patients in suspension there. I worked for years at U.C.S.F. and I know how many places there are in such a very large institution to shelter some small foundation like a cryonics facility.
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Joined: June 8th, 2009, 3:02 am

June 14th, 2009, 6:38 pm #5

I think Oregon Cryonics is starting as a community group and planning to eventually branch into the cryostasis side of things. But at present it is an educational organization, that works together with CI. The founder Jorden Sparks is a CI director.

http://www.oregoncryo.com/

So maybe that is the optimal path. Start out as a training and local support group that works with an existing org, yet have the goal of forming your own facilities if and when you get big enough. Perhaps I eventually could get something going in Idaho that way.

I also think expanding social services among cryos is an excellent idea. It doesn't all need to be done by the same organization that does the preservations. Charitable work done in communities by cryo motivated groups would be a good way to increase acceptance and build membership.
Luke, some fine ideas in your post, as usual.
I've contacted this Oregon cryonics group since I have lived there on the coast and loved it. Very remote area. Salem OR might indeed be better, as it is on the I-5 corridor where all the other major urban areas are situated, although I prefer if on the coast. My issue is money.(now isn't that simply stated?). I have only my skills and motivation to contribute, and would even find another relocation to Oregon a bit difficult now.

David P. has suggested that an aging member has some additional problems to face. One of them I find is simply the urgency to get it all done "in time".

I'm trying to figure out people here, who they are, and where they are at in regards to actually doing a cryonics thing. You, Luke, are way off there in Idaho and without membership in either facility now. And the idle "wonderings" continue...
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Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

June 14th, 2009, 7:19 pm #6

Yes, there are financial considerations, of course. These might be even magnified by today's economy.
I posted to the Oregon cryonics chat site the idea of attempting to associate a cryonics facility with some major university medical center. Although there would be bureaucratic problems I am not addressing, it might provide more acceptance of cryonics if it were viewed as a part of medical research and teaching. It might also be a means of providing some funding, since, for instance, medical students might use the facility in their studies. Being "hidden away" in a large medical educational facility might provide more security from malicious intent and better protect patients in suspension there. I worked for years at U.C.S.F. and I know how many places there are in such a very large institution to shelter some small foundation like a cryonics facility.
in another thread you cast doubts on alcor's location in AZ because it was close to a nuke power plant, and yet now you look favorably on an Oregon location??? Oregon, with one of the biggest earthquake risks in america??

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Joined: June 8th, 2009, 3:02 am

June 14th, 2009, 8:30 pm #7

Right, of course. Oregon also has nuclear power nearby I believe (Washington?). Myself, I have never lived near any nuclear power plants anywhere in my life and guess I'm uneasy at the idea. Earth quakes somehow do not bother me as much as nuclear power for some reason, but all those bridges over rivers in Oregon are certainly very vulnerable. The actual physical structure of cryonics facilities can be protected from earthquakes, but local infrastructure for power and supplies is vulnerable. Much of my interest in Oregon Cryonic may be simply wishful thinking, as I find the Arizona desert unfit for human habitation. (personal opinion from a "climate refugee").

What suggestions do you have? No place is perfect. It would seem to me that many small cryonics facilities might be spread around to serve more people better. Only having two and needing to get to them is a problem. I don't know the answers but do like to hear what others are thinking.
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Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

June 14th, 2009, 9:45 pm #8

nuke power is nothing next to earthquakes. I have worked in nuclear power plants and know a lot about them. They are pretty safe.

Earthquakes could destroy or disrupt dewars and infrastructure, as could tornadoes or even hurricanes.

You are from san francisco, but you moved to phoenix, if I recall correctly from your replies elsewhere in this forum.
You tell me what is wrong with the phoenix area.

We should have response teams located in So Cal and Sf areas, in dallas, Houston, in chicago, in Cleveland, atlanta, FL, DC, NYC and Boston. That way the storage location in AZ would be moot.

But we need probably around 10K cryonicists to have that response team capability. We have about 1000 now.

Getting 10K cryos should be your concern once you have secured your own cryopreservation.

As I see things, we could get 10K in 10 years or even less. But we would need to ally with and appeal to our natural allies--the religious americans, specifically, the protestants. Fortunately, this is a very large bloc of americans, numbering probably somewhere near 100 million adults.

they don't want to die.
Hey, we cryos don't want to die, either.

They turn to religion to help them get over their
fear of death. So do we, at least in a way--cryonics helps us forget our fear of death.

They believe in a bible where their god tells them to raise the dead, to help him fight a final battle against death, and who promises them that his followers will live on the land forever when Christ returns.

Hey, we wanna live on the land forever, too!

Protestants sound like natural cryonicists to me.

Unfortunately, in order to make that logical leap into the thoughtspace where cryonics makes sense logically, you have to be pretty darn self educated and independent and intelligent and rather alienated and highly objective. In general, having all these personal characteristics also makes us dislike religion and its adherents. In general.

So, instead we appeal to others like us--bookworms, highly educated, libertarians, programmers, iconoclasts, etc.

And thus our social growth pathways are anemic and stunted, cuz, I gotta tell, folks like us aint too social, unlike churchgoers or even just regular believers.

So we might get that 10K in 30 years or so...

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Joined: June 8th, 2009, 3:02 am

June 14th, 2009, 9:58 pm #9

Thank you for your comments. I won't address them all here. I have lived through many earth quakes but not through any major radiation events. I have seen large cities in the aftermath of eathquakes. They are horrible things, especially where the people are not sufficiently prepared for them.

Very subjective, but I find the Phoenix area to be one of the most uncomfortable I have ever experienced. It's too hot for me...(subjective). It also surprises me that I see no solar panels around here in the sunny desert and tons of water being used ("wasted") on irrigation. It all seems rather "unenlightened" to me. And those are my feeling on this Phoenix area.
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Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

June 14th, 2009, 10:05 pm #10

not "progressive" enough for you? You think the Pac NW would be more in tune with you, politically?

Well, me, too probably, although I despise democrats, republicans, and the libertarians as well.

But if I could arrange setting up shop in PHX, none of that would matter to me.

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