let's not cause cryonics to be illegal.

let's not cause cryonics to be illegal.

jon king
jon king

October 19th, 2009, 1:07 am #1

On October 11 I posted this:
"As I read recent posts here I am wondering how helpful the stuff really is. Constructive criticism is o.k. and useful, but if in the process of some selfish, vain gratification, our postings aid in the illegalization of cryonics, then we shall all be the worse for them. I am concerned mainly about the whole practice of cryonics being made illegal in this country as it is in many others. This is a time for less humor, for us to pull together in supporting cryonics, and for saving our criticisms for some time "down the road". For me, I am finding now that "Cold Filter" is not a place to go for anything positive or helpful. This is regrettable. I could find as much useful in any of our mud raking popular newspapers (we all know the ones at the check out counters)."
Now I see there was never any response to my posting. That's o.k., but I do wish, without taking away our freedom of speech, that this chat site might be one where we could find things helpful to the survival of cryonics rather than it's destruction. I would like to see more people exercising the philosophy of Max Moore: his "Proactionary principle". If interested, then you might look at this site:
http://www.maxmore.com/proactionary.html



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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

October 19th, 2009, 12:47 pm #2

If you read Johnson's book, and Kunzman's book, and a lot of other information that has been disclosed, about cryonics practices, and then you look at the history of cryonics, and see the same names, over, and over, and over, again, associated with some very questionable behaviors, you will see what needs to be done, in order to avoid the banning of cryonics.

It's not the people who are reporting the behaviors that are causing the problems. I get this impression of quite a few cryonics care providers exhibiting some rather bizarrely "cavalier" behavior, but there's nothing really gallant about it. They seem to think they are going "above and beyond" to save each individual, when they are really endangering the entire community.
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 19th, 2009, 12:59 pm #3

Maxim points to the same individuals endangering the entire community. I agree. The essential feature of Maxim's point that Maxim herself doesn't fully grasp-- which is understandable-- is that cryonicists have an inherent paradoxical problem. To survive, they must act as a community. And yet, they abhor community and and elevate individualism to an "irrationally exhuberant" degree. They have no concept of how identity is located in community or history. They reject that. Ettinger himself said in another thread-- "do what you can individually". This flaw in cryonics mentality is potentially a fatal one. It's a true paradox. Only a higher principle can override it.... and yet cryonicists as reductionists and materialists reject the very concept of a principle. They reject ethics. They reject moral standards. They reject community. And now, there will be a reckoning.

It's often said that we can learn the easy way or the hard way. As I see cryonics, I think cryonicists are choosing to learn "the hard way". Maxim and me in our own ways, have tried to help cryonics learn the easy way-- to no effect. I've often spoken of the members like me of alcor as stakeholders. Stakeholders is a valid term in any other larger enterprise where the connections to a situation are ill defined or contested. Having a stake in something offers a larger perspective that ought to be respected. In cryonics, it's not. In alcor it's not. In the inner circle of cryonics, it's not. And among members themselves it's not. I tried to fix that with opening up forums like this, with no effect, really.

So... let's get ready to learn the hard way, then. It looks to me as though Ettinger himself is ready to learn the hard way, along with the innter circle in cryonics. However that takes shape and whenever it does, whether Johnson has any effect at all, or whther the cryonics community learning curve occurs over a much longer period is beside the point. I would say that a long learning curve in this regard ought not be mistaken for everything being okay. The sooner cryonics becomes a responsible community in the tradition of Benjamin Franklin, say, the easier we stakeholders will breathe.
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Joined: August 31st, 2007, 2:14 pm

October 19th, 2009, 3:53 pm #4

I don't know who "Philo" is, but he wrote in part:

"cryonicists as reductionists and materialists reject the very concept of a principle. They reject ethics. They reject moral standards. They reject community."

This is beyond stupid. A reductionist and materialist must "reject the very concept of a principle"?

Of course, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and even an idiot is sometimes right about some things, but what Philo wrote is close to gibberish, except for the part about community.

It is true that many cryonicists, possibly most, would prefer to just sign up and be taken care of, rather than have ongoing active connections with their organizations. Those who want to improve this situation should make some specific effort.

When I say we should do what we can individually, that does not exclude cooperation. It just means that, at minimum, there are things that every individual can do, and few sof us are doing as much as we could.

Robert Ettinger
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Joined: June 5th, 2009, 12:29 am

October 19th, 2009, 5:26 pm #5

Of all people..


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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 19th, 2009, 5:51 pm #6

..."of all people"?
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 19th, 2009, 7:13 pm #7

I don't know who "Philo" is, but he wrote in part:

"cryonicists as reductionists and materialists reject the very concept of a principle. They reject ethics. They reject moral standards. They reject community."

This is beyond stupid. A reductionist and materialist must "reject the very concept of a principle"?

Of course, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and even an idiot is sometimes right about some things, but what Philo wrote is close to gibberish, except for the part about community.

It is true that many cryonicists, possibly most, would prefer to just sign up and be taken care of, rather than have ongoing active connections with their organizations. Those who want to improve this situation should make some specific effort.

When I say we should do what we can individually, that does not exclude cooperation. It just means that, at minimum, there are things that every individual can do, and few sof us are doing as much as we could.

Robert Ettinger
Cryonics is highly dependent on a few people with significant money. It may be that money is being mistaken for principles. In effect, what ought to be principled action is actually action that satisfies the requirements for money flow. It's a mistake that's often made in every area of life. Nature doesnt' pay attention of course. It just occurs to me that we might contemplate the danger to our lives of mistaking money for principles.
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 20th, 2009, 1:37 pm #8

I don't know who "Philo" is, but he wrote in part:

"cryonicists as reductionists and materialists reject the very concept of a principle. They reject ethics. They reject moral standards. They reject community."

This is beyond stupid. A reductionist and materialist must "reject the very concept of a principle"?

Of course, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and even an idiot is sometimes right about some things, but what Philo wrote is close to gibberish, except for the part about community.

It is true that many cryonicists, possibly most, would prefer to just sign up and be taken care of, rather than have ongoing active connections with their organizations. Those who want to improve this situation should make some specific effort.

When I say we should do what we can individually, that does not exclude cooperation. It just means that, at minimum, there are things that every individual can do, and few sof us are doing as much as we could.

Robert Ettinger
The first thing to note about Ettinger's retort to my position is his cavalier dismissal of it as nonsense, without further qualification. He pretends that there is no relationship at all between the idea of a principle and the philosophy of materialism and reductionism. Ettinger, from my area then, represents a gatekeeper who wards off any internal philosophical inquiry into cryonics. He's obviously not the only one but he's the highest profile gatekeeper in this sense. "Thou shalt not go there", says the dragan with the fiery mouth.

Suffice it to say for now that Ettinger's position represent the rejection of the consideration of cryonics in the larger historical EDUCATED philosophical streams of thought that DO define these terms. And that's my direction-- because the history of philosophical thought is really the basis for the history of political, economic and even scientific thought. To make distinstions between one camp and another in philosophical thinking in history is important-- and at the same time, we see those sorts of minds who wish to ERASE those important distinctions by pretending that they are nonsense (balderdash).

So...

Materialism rejects principles. Most cryonicists are materialists. That's the essence of why cryonicists are signed up for cryonics. For them, essentially, there is no mind, and there are no principles. There is only matter and energy-- and behavior. Ettinger's behavior, then, in mocking my position, has the EFFECT-- the INTENDED effect-- of cancelling the validity of my view based on his long time authority and regard in cryonics. We can see the reponse to ettinger in this forum by queensblade adopting this rejection of my position-- based not on reasoned argumentation but rather on pithy put downs... don't let philo pull your chain.

Charles Tandy has positioned Ettinger in an untenable position as rejecting even the quantum theory of consciousness-- so it's actually Ettinger who is the odd man now....

The Philosophy of Robert Ettinger - Google Books Result
by Charles Tandy - 2002 - Philosophy - 276 pages
... and the problem of the soul and immortality, than the reductive materialism presently in vogue. Robert Ettinger's vision of physical immortality through ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=158112600X...

Ettinger's character in Penultimate Trump refers to materialism...

"`The only real remedy, perhaps, is fear of God, but the materialist knows that when he dies his rotting carcass is beyond punishment, beyond hope, beyond recall. Thus the only restraint on beastliness is the ineffectual one of conscience, and in consequence --'"
http://www.cryonics.org/Trump.html

Ettinger wrote in the 1960s that cryonics pushed materialism to it's limit

CRYONICS Volume 10(8) AUGUST, 1989 Issue #109 1 Editorial Matters ...
The Cryonicist's Argument In the early 1960's, as noted, Robert Ettinger pushed the materialist philosophy to its logical conclusion. ...
www.alcor.org/cryonics/cryonics8908.txt - Cached - Similar

Ettinger represents a particular cryonics philsophy that HAS been looked as philosophy... it's not balderdash at all...

Book Chapters:
"Caring Cryonics?", The Philosophy of Robert Ettinger, Charles Tandy, Scott Stroud, Eds., Palo Alto: Ria University Press, 2002
http://www.sjsu.edu/philosophy/contact/ ... /index.htm

Ettinger's philosophy is referred as STARKLY materialist...

Frieze Magazine | Archive | Cold Feet
It wasn't until the publication of Robert Ettinger's The Prospect of Immortality ... of medicine and their starkly materialist conception of the self. ...
www.frieze.com/issue/article/cold_feet - Cached - Similar
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10041b.htm

And in Younivere, Ettingers delves deeply into materialism...

Youniverse: Toward a Self-Centered Philosophy of Immortalism and ... - Google Books Result
by Robert C.W. Ettinger - 2009 - Philosophy - 428 pages
Materialism: Materialism is primarily the idea that everything is physical or stemming from the physical, in contrast to dualistic or spiritual notions. ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=1599429799...

In YOuniverse, Ettinger claims that he finds it impossible to understand "anti-materialist" philosophies... and that they all contribute to self-delusion. So it begs the question, where do principles exist? Mark Plus calls non material thought objects "made up rules" in other posts... as if there is no natural law. Max more, in the 1990s', referred to the Neizchean idea of "do what thou wilst" as if there are no natural rules in the universe. So the idea that principles exist, is a problem for materialists. Ettinger is a strict materialist and by definition then rejects principles-- which are invisible realities that rule the universe-- which we can discover and apply only with the power of the human mind-- the only existing thing that is able to contain a principle.

I'll get into principles later... because I'm stuck for time but the idea that Ettinger is the final authority in cryonics should be questioned. His lack of regard for his OWN leadership in cryonics-- is anathema now to the cryonics community because cryonics is facing danger. Ettinger has a natural role as a leader but doesn't believe in the PRINCIPLE of leadership. For me, all of cryonics is reduced to individuals making efforts on their own-- and if that HAPPENS to result in cooperation, great.

In this way, Ettinger is a reductionist... he builds cryonics from the ground up-- from each atomized individual, up. This is how reductionists think. I'm the opposite. I'm saying take the high ground and build down. Establish the overarching principle and determine how to meet the obligations of that principle. That's what Maxim does.. she asks "if cryonics IS a medical science, and if medical science requires these elements-- naming them--- THEN how do we move DOWN into cryonics applying THOSE medical principles?". This is the approach that will save cryonics. I think cryonics is more than medicine but that's the point right now.

The point is, is that the reductionsts and materialists in cryonics are taking cryonics down a very scary and risky road... and it's time someone called them on it from the proper perspective-- the philosophical perspective. Apparently all Ettinger can say in retort is that I'm "beyond stupid". I can't help but think of Spock raising an eyebrow saying "Fascinating".



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Joined: October 9th, 2009, 9:26 pm

October 20th, 2009, 7:52 pm #9


Though I don't agree with everything it says, an excellent mental exercise on principles can be found in "Good and Real: Demystifying Paradoxes from Physics to Ethics" by Gary Drescher. You can even find a "free online version" if you do a bit of searching . People - in cryonics or elsewhere - have a tendency to make bad decisions. This has nothing to do with materialism, reductionism, (insert your own). Christians make bad decisions all the time, too.


If cryonicists lacked principles, cryonics wouldn't even exist


My second recommended book is: "What Management Is" by Joan Magretta.

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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 20th, 2009, 9:07 pm #10

This is rediculous. Make your point. And then use the book site as a footnote or reference. You make the mistake of thinking I'm dealing with bad decision. No. It's far more than that. It's unprincipled behavior based on the absense of UNIVERSAL principles.

For example, here's a google search on Gary Dresher
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... f&oq=&aqi=

And we see that he got a degree from MIT AI lab.
The Singularity Summit 2009 > Bios > Gary Drescher
Gary Drescher received his doctorate at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory in 1989. His book Made-Up Minds: A Constructivist Approach to Artificial ...
www.singularitysummit.com/bios/drescher - Cached - Similar -

I reject AI. Therefore pointing to Dresher is pointless. YOU are an example of a cryonicist who can't make his own points. You couldn't EVEN give me a link to your favorite dresher site. NOTHING.
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