larry johnson comes out of hiding, and he's gunning for Alcor

larry johnson comes out of hiding, and he's gunning for Alcor

Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

January 28th, 2009, 12:20 pm #1

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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

January 28th, 2009, 4:20 pm #2

such a bad thing?

Standards, guidelines to follow, rules of behavior and accountability?
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Joined: November 16th, 2008, 3:16 pm

January 28th, 2009, 4:31 pm #3

What if regulation interferes with patients' potential resuscitatability? A regulator might do something stupid like putting a yellow "Do not resuscitate" sticker on Alcor's dewars.
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

January 28th, 2009, 4:37 pm #4

remark...

Doctors and medical facilities are regulated when providing services for living people, why not cryonics, ESPECIALLY since the aim is to be brought back to life.
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Joined: November 16th, 2008, 3:16 pm

January 28th, 2009, 4:48 pm #5

I don't find my scenario all that absurd. The regulations could very well let cryonics societies put patients into suspension and keep them there indefinitely, but not let them attempt revival even if it becomes technologically doable. After all, we wouldn't want to subject cryonauts to the trauma of waking up in some alienating future world, would we?
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

January 28th, 2009, 4:53 pm #6

Freezing "dead" human bodies is one thing, and relatively harmless: performing reanimation science on them may raise other ethical questions!
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Joined: November 16th, 2008, 3:16 pm

January 28th, 2009, 5:03 pm #7

A regulator has no incentive to give permission for the first attempted cryonic revival because he doesn't want to expose himself to the risk of receiving the blame in case something goes wrong.
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

January 28th, 2009, 5:11 pm #8

we're talking about is on the suspension side...
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Joined: November 16th, 2008, 3:16 pm

January 28th, 2009, 5:31 pm #9

Just keep putting LN into the dewar, and you don't have to make any decisions or take any risks. The patients won't complain or file any lawsuits, either.

Trying to revive a patient, by contrast, means doing a risky thing for the first time, the approval for which few bureaucrats really wants to expose their asses for if it's socially or politically controversial.
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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

January 28th, 2009, 6:08 pm #10

such a bad thing?

Standards, guidelines to follow, rules of behavior and accountability?
...with both Larry Johnson and TWrelated. Based on my experience in heart surgery, cryonics is a logical, and viable, extension of existing hypothermic medical procedures...or, at least, it SHOULD BE.

Unless someone I respect can convince me otherwise, I'm going to take a strong stance in favor of regulation. Without it, twenty years from now, cryonicists will have exactly what they had twenty years ago, and exactly what they have, today...a very small group of patient caregivers largely comprised of untrained, uneducated, incompetent people, many who don't give a damn about cryonics, other than the money they get paid for "playing doctor," or as one cryonics employee so delicately put it, "freezing dead people." I believe that is what working in cryonics is, to many cryonics employees...they don't know what they are doing and they don't care about cryonics. I've been there, and I've seen it...people just earning very generous paychecks for doing what they are told to do, without question.

I guess it's easy to be agreeable when someone pays you $60-80K a year to do what you are told, and you're basically ignorant of the underlying scientific and medical principles. Add in some really great benefits, like four weeks of paid vacation, the freedom for the employees to come and go as they please, the freedom to sit in one's office and do nothing more than play on the Internet all day, very little real casework, and not much supervision from the people footing the bill, and I'd guess it would be easy for someone in a position of power to get, and keep, a lot of "loyal" employees...maybe even some who would be willing to help run off "difficult" newcomers who question the company's activities.

How do cryonicists expect the science to advance, when patient care lies mostly in the hands of blue-collar workers who have minimal-to-no formal medical education, and/or training??? Seriously! Metal fabricators, used car salesmen, rocket scientists, golf pros, accountants, and fiction authors all have their places, but their places are NOT in administering emergency hypothermic medical care, nor in making decisions in a field that SHOULD BE on the cutting edge of medical technology. I believe my past public harping on this topic led to Catherine Baldwin sending SA's employees to EMT-Basic training, but she knows as well as I do, that is not enough. You don't take people who are earning 3-4 times as much as experienced EMT's, send them to 12 weeks of training, after they will have no clinical experience, and pretend like you've rectified the situation. Someone who has been to EMT-Basic training, (followed by no clinical experience), is unlikely to be able to gain IV access on a patient with GOOD blood pressure, much less a cryonics patient with NO blood pressure. Ms. Baldwin's empty gesture should be intellectually insulting, to all cryonicists. SA could have significantly better-qualified personnel, at a much lower price than the cost of their current payroll. I'm sure Ms. Baldwin knows that, as well as I do.

I don't believe Larry Johnson wants to "shut down" cryonics, I believe he simply wants the same thing I want...for the organizations and individuals involved to be held accountable for their actions, their inactions, and their fiscal irresponsibility. Quit letting the status quo scare you, regarding regulation. I doubt the people in charge are as concerned about cryonics organizations being shut down, as they are about losing their own grossly-inflated and largely-undeserved salaries, not to mention their "expert" status. These so-called "experts" and "leaders" have brought you virtually NOTHING in the way of significant progress, in DECADES.

I have always made it very clear that I believe cryonics is a valid extension of existing medical procedures. I DO believe that, at some point in time, a person will be cryopreserved and later, (possibly much later), revived. HOWEVER...it's going to be a long damn time before that happens, if someone doesn't weed out all the greedy incompetents who have been scamming the generous people willing to fund cryonics efforts, for far too long.
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