In light of the propofol discussion, I think you should reread "How Dead is Dead Enough?"

In light of the propofol discussion, I think you should reread "How Dead is Dead Enough?"

Joined: October 9th, 2009, 9:26 pm

February 22nd, 2010, 6:07 pm #1

This is one of the central papers I'll be pushing later:http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/how- ... ad-enough/
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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

February 23rd, 2010, 11:23 am #2

I'm not sure whom "enoonsti" was referring to, but I'm hoping he meant all of us.

Two of the people here should probably focus on this statement, which was a response to cryonicists' feeling that the contents of the kits will protect cryonics organizations from being accused of euthanasia:

"This is now the dominant view within the cryonics community. I believe this position is incorrect and that it provides a dangerous sense of false security, and further, that it obscures discussion and action on deeper issues that will have to be addressed, either sooner, in a calm, prospective manner, or later, in the midst of crisis, strong emotions and retrospective blaming."
http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/how- ... ad-enough/

I didn't ask the "propofol question," just for fun, (though it did turn out to be somewhat entertaining), I asked because others were asking me. The logical response from people wanting to defend the use of propofol, in cryonics, would have been a rational well-informed discussion, or perhaps an "Oooooops, maybe we should think of a better alternative." Instead of a productive discussion, we got two people who seemed to be more interested in personally attacking me, than intellectually defending their position. One of them wanted to claim information I posted, regarding propofol requiring a continuous infusion to maintain unconsciousness, was "gibberish." I suggest he look up the dosing information, and the duration of action, for propofol. The same person accused me of using some sort of "scare tactics," for even discussing the issue. Did he accuse Mike of the same thing, when Mike discussed the problem with the meds kits?
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Joined: October 9th, 2009, 9:26 pm

February 23rd, 2010, 5:44 pm #3

I like to say "you" because it makes the reader wonder, "Wait. ME!?!?!? How did you know I was reading this?"

Or something like that.

Or nothing like that :D
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Joined: July 1st, 2007, 8:16 am

February 23rd, 2010, 8:55 pm #4

... and it is NOT gibberish. It explains the subject in depth. I think "FD” should read it, so he will not call expert opinions gibberish. But then, who knows... Depends on what is his real agenda of the moment.

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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

February 24th, 2010, 12:48 pm #5

This is one of the central papers I'll be pushing later:http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/how- ... ad-enough/
Something I didn't see, in the article enoonsti linked to, was information regarding the dosing of propofol. The dosing will vary, from patient to patient, based on many factors, and should be determined by a qualified person. Here is one general recommendation I found, online:

anesthesia induction
[healthy adults <55 yo]<br>Dose: 2-2.5 mg/kg IV given as 40 mg q10sec until induction onset

anesthesia maintenance
[healthy adults <55 yo]<br>Dose: 0.1-0.2 mg/kg/min IV; Alt: 25-50 mg IV prn


https://online.epocrates.com/u/1011979/ ... ult+Dosing

Using the low end of this suggested dosing, for a 70kg (154lb) man, the dosing would be 140mg for induction, followed by 7mg per min (420mg per hour).

Does FD still think 25mg is enough to "keep 'em dead"?

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Joined: October 9th, 2009, 9:26 pm

February 24th, 2010, 10:57 pm #6




By the way, I linked to the article because of Mike's conclusion, particularly the longer-term solution... which, realistically, is a hellacious route. I'll be trying to help in April, but I know my efforts probably won't leave much of a dent
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

February 25th, 2010, 2:38 am #7

This is one of the central papers I'll be pushing later:http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/how- ... ad-enough/
They promised me propofal: I'll ask em how much they're using!
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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

February 25th, 2010, 4:24 am #8

This is one of the central papers I'll be pushing later:http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/how- ... ad-enough/
Back in October, I cited the following link as being a book written by enoonsti, from having gotten there via a Google search:

http://www.amazon.com/Stinky-Cheese-Oth ... 067084487X

In response to this, enoonsti confirmed he is the author, here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/m ... +ages+-%29

I love his sense of humor. The problem I have with it is that to me cryonics is not something to be ridiculed, legislated out of existence, or otherwise hampered. I wonder if enoonsti has plans to write a grade-school-level humor piece featuring cryonics as the goat? I sure hope not. I hope he takes life a lot more seriously than that, unlike many who post on CF against current cryonics practice recently, and with whom he seems to have unfortunately become associated.

Here is enoonsti's bio, from the Amazon book link he admitted association with (you can find it there yourself):

Jon Scieszka was born in Flint, Michigan on September 8th, 1954. He grew up with five brothers, has the same birthday as Peter Sellers and the Virgin Mary, and a sneaking suspicion that the characters in his Dick and Jane reader were not of this world. Those plain facts, plus his elementary school principal dad, Louis, his registered nurse mom, Shirley (who once took Jon's Cub Scout den on a field trip to the prenatal ward), Mad Magazine, four years of pre-med undergrad, "The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show", an M.F.A. in Fiction from Columbia University, Robert Benchley, five years of painting apartments in New York City, his lovely wife Jeri Hansen who introduced him to Molly Leach and Lane Smith, Green Eggs and Ham, his teenage daughter Casey and almost teenage son Jake, ten years of teaching a little bit of everything from first grade to eighth grade, and the last twenty years of living in Brooklyn...are just some of Jon's answers to the questions, "Where do you get your ideas?" and/or "How did you become a writer?" I don't know, just because, none of your beeswax, and flapdoodle poppycock and balderdash are some more of Jon's answers to questions you can imagine on your own. Jon met up with Lane Smith around 1986 or so, and nothing has been the same since. Their first book, the wiseguy fairy tale retelling, The True Story of the 3 Little Pigs! was initially rejected by most publishers as "too weird" and "too sophisticated". Published by Viking in 1989, The True Story has now sold over a million copies, been translated into ten languages, and been called a "classic picture book for all ages". Jon and Lane's The Stinky Cheese Man and Other Fairly Stupid Tales (1992) took the world of the picture book a few steps further. Goofing with the conventions of fairy tales and even being a book, The Stinky Cheese Man became a household word, sold another mess of copies in multiple languages, offended a few purists, and still managed to win a Caldecott Honor medal. Math Curse (1995) further stretched the notion of what subjects make good picture books, selling more books faster than either 3 Little Pigs or Stinky Cheese, and winning a whole slew of awards --all for a book full of mathematics.More recently, Jon and Lane have resurrected fables (in the smart, funny, and a little bit wicked way Aesop would have wanted them) in their latest collaboration, Squids Will Be Squids (1998). No telling where they might take the picture book next. Someone once wrote, "Jon Scieszka has forever changed the face of children's literature." And while there is still some confusion over exactly who that someone was, and whether children's literature does, in fact, have a face, most would agree-from The True Story of the 3 Little Pigs! to Squids Will Be Squids, since Scieszka put pen to paper, children's literature sure has been...different.
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Joined: October 9th, 2009, 9:26 pm

February 25th, 2010, 5:00 am #9

Don't worry FD. I'm not in league with anyone (please see my posts over at Imminst, as I recently gave a wedgie to Johnson once more).

The reason why I've been vague is that I'm trying to get a fuller grasp of the situation, and I keep wrestling with artistic decisions and so forth for my website (which is geared for Reddit users, but it will also be entered into a competition - the deadline being April 19th - which may be seen by some influential people). I don't want to approach the community with a potential request until I can give you guys something more concrete. I probably should not have started saying anything, but I'm also dropping these hints so that you guys won't be completely surprised when I ask.

(I'll explain why I consider that paper to be "central" later on... because it's not for the reasons assumed here...)

All that said, I'll lay off the humor. I actually find cryonics to be a depressing topic, and so I was just trying to keep my sanity by injecting humor for myself.


Group hug?
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Joined: April 30th, 2006, 1:38 am

February 25th, 2010, 2:18 pm #10




By the way, I linked to the article because of Mike's conclusion, particularly the longer-term solution... which, realistically, is a hellacious route. I'll be trying to help in April, but I know my efforts probably won't leave much of a dent
Pixie dust? Hmmmmm, that's for flying, not dying. Maybe there are other varieties.

One of my first observations, after stumbling into the field of cryonics, was that people should be working toward statutory changes that would optimize cryopreservation attempts. Many times, I've put forth that the ideal situation would be one in which legalized assisted suicide for terminal patients signed up for cryopreservation was carried out, via perfusion. They would be anesthetized and then cooled, just as patients are, in the initial steps of heart surgery. (Fallout from my conventional medicine friends will probably follow this post, but they are more forgiving than the cryonics community. They allow me to straddle the fence, usually responding with laughter, rather than outrage.)

Having participated in profound hypothermia with circulatory arrest procedures, in conventional medicine, my curiosity was piqued by the idea of cryonics. It's more of a "science experiment," than anything else, to me; I really want to know to what point the boundaries of existing hypothermic arrest procedures can be extended. Unfortunately, organizations such as Alcor and Suspended Animation often seem (probably unintentionally) hellbent on making sure that little science experiment is never allowed to be carried out, under the ideal conditions. Working toward the goal of changing laws and regulations would require the organizations to behave respectably, and professionally, using qualified personnel. When people persist in making a total mockery of existing science and technology, upon which their endeavors should be based, no one is likely to take them seriously. And, when they engage in activities that make them look "ghoulish," and/or "cult-like," it is certain to do more harm than good. I'm sorry, but laymen running around in white lab coats, acting like medical professionals performing surgeries, is only going to scare most people, and with that fear is going to come even more stringent regulation. Ironically, I think some of the most intelligent, most generous, most productive people working in cryonics are often the very same people who have caused the most harm. The cryonics community seems to be something like a "hotbed of Asperger's," more often than not...like some sort of rich bed of very-focused intelligence, but almost totally lacking in social skills and common sense.
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