Vintage

Vintage

Joined: March 10th, 2007, 10:16 pm

March 9th, 2012, 9:52 am #1

Hi. Have been away for quite a while and have been a bit bored. Result is that I have been buying a few. Mainly picked up M77, M88 and M99 Sea Lion watches. Some of these things have incredible movements - up to 35j. Also got some 27j Bellmatics but don't seem to be able to get a 21j version. Will post pics later. Cheers Phil
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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

March 30th, 2012, 6:11 am #2

Haven't heard of that... most highly jeweled I know of are the 830x based 30j Sealions.

Check out this database link:

http://seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/249/Seiko-Sealion

What is the movement in your 35j?? All I know that are 35j (that are not either Grand Seiko or Pro Diver) are the 6218s [A,B, & C variants] in "Weekdater" styles: haven't seen one of those in a SeaLion case, usually dolphin back (or no design). I double checked w/ the "Seikomatic" website [Japan language] but couldn't find any indication of a 35j Sea Lion ["sea dog"] model.

Can you provide pics or the various code#s [case code# & dial codes] to verify this??

Thanks!

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Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: June 19th, 2009, 6:51 pm

March 30th, 2012, 2:11 pm #3

Wouldn't it be cool if Phil has a watch that hasn't found it's way into your database yet

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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

March 31st, 2012, 2:42 am #4

indeed. Missed you & Thian & others over @ Seikoholics.

Anyway, yeah ... I don't usually have much time other than my "real" online work, Seikoholics, & PWC [moderator there]. I do look in here +/- once a month. But ... Phil's post really made me curious! I even had to figure out my ID here all over again, it's been so long I've written @ any network.54 site.

Would indeed be interesting to see what a 35j Sea Lion is! I did manage (last year) to get my 1st 2 Sea Lion models ... both from eBay.PH [Philippines] and both from my "kaibigan" [friend] "Watchcooking" [Jose Sotto] up in Manila:

1. An 8306 30j
2. A 6205 24j - but with the movement labeled as "394" [the older calibre designation for a 6205].

I'll just direct you to my posts on them over @ Seikoholics ... it's a little easier for me right now, I'm a bit pressed for time still (reasons here):

http://seikoholics.yuku.com/topic/806/H ... or-a-while

and I'm still figuring out the photo posting capabilities here [PB only or other hosts allowed??]:

http://seikoholics.yuku.com/topic/751/L ... e-from-the

http://seikoholics.yuku.com/topic/563/S ... ed-me-home

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Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: March 10th, 2007, 10:16 pm

March 31st, 2012, 7:34 am #5

Haven't heard of that... most highly jeweled I know of are the 830x based 30j Sealions.

Check out this database link:

http://seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/249/Seiko-Sealion

What is the movement in your 35j?? All I know that are 35j (that are not either Grand Seiko or Pro Diver) are the 6218s [A,B, & C variants] in "Weekdater" styles: haven't seen one of those in a SeaLion case, usually dolphin back (or no design). I double checked w/ the "Seikomatic" website [Japan language] but couldn't find any indication of a 35j Sea Lion ["sea dog"] model.

Can you provide pics or the various code#s [case code# & dial codes] to verify this??

Thanks!

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Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
Hi. Hadn't meant to infer that the 35j watch is sealion but vintage. As you probably realise it is a seikomatic with a 6218 under the hood.

Great to see that you are on the ball and having a peek at us.

Cheers Phil
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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

March 31st, 2012, 11:44 pm #6

... oh well, I was hoping you did have some rather rare/obscure variety there

Indeed the Seikomatic 6218's are a treasure ... really a high grade movement inside a "package" that people tend to undervalue. I look at it like this: a 6218 gives you 90% (?? more??) of the quality of a GS at 20% (or less!) the price in the used/vintage market.

On the Bells: yes indeed the hardest movement varieties to find are the 21j 4006 and the 4005 [Date only & 27j only]. I've only seen a couple of the 4005's around here [Philippines] and IIRC have never seen a 21j in the sales offerings. Data I've seen on the net say that the 21j Bells make up only about 5% of total production of 4006's and that the 4005 is about the same rarity level as the 21j 4006. So... happy hunting!!

And yes, I have indeed looked in on you periodically to see what's up. Just that this was the 1st time I'd felt "moved" to write Maybe I'll do more writing if you guys want to talk more vintage stuff!!

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Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: June 19th, 2009, 6:51 pm

April 1st, 2012, 12:36 am #7

It's not often that we get to discuss where particular movements fit in the scheme of things. Outside of the various KS and GS movements; I don't think I've ever seen anything that rates old hand wind models as anything but entry level.

I would love to find out how the various 5, 6 and 7 series hand wind only calibres rated when they were new.

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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

April 1st, 2012, 1:34 am #8



But, for now, I'll have to start with just this ...

Lord Marvel

from the Seikomatic archives, there is a write-up of the Lord Marvel series of watches [which started in late '50s on a "Marvel base" movement, then switched to a "Crown base" or cal. 5740]. It's a bit interesting that Seikomatic wrote an article on a manual wind!!

Anyway, related to quality of early '60s models, they have to say this [somewhat badly translated]. OK, Koga is crying to go out, so I'll just have to copy & paste for now rather than attempting to clean up the text to make it more readable, I guess it'll have to be another day:

Ministry of International Trade and Industry central Inspection Institute of Weights and Measures from 1961 was proven by ..the first place.. heroic deed in all of time "Long-term accuracy comparison examination" first-three times executed high accuracy to which loading Marvel was stabilized.

"Accuracy of Seiko proven again"
"The first Seiko loading Marvel place in the long-term comparison examination of the wristwatch made of the foreign country domestic. " SEIKO NEWS NO.58 The clock to which the total quality inspection was brought in by the manufacturer when it is domestic where the Ministry of International Trade and Industry went from (1963/4) to the quotation deflecting by sponsoring while done, the result of the examination for 30 days had already been announced in May, 1961 when having bought it by what the inspection station clerk in charge extracted, and had bought from both of clocked by use to the accuracy comparison inspection of this domestic production and wristwatch made of the foreign country department stores and the clock shops in Tokyo.
At that time, Seiko loading Marvel was proven, and it became, and the excellence of Seiko was proven to be the first place.
Resolving these clocks were collected last after Inspection Institute of Weights and Measures extracted the clock that the grade was good in the examination of the 1st according to the manufacturer, and it used it for one and a half years in daily life October afterwards, the examination of the same as last was executed (the 2nd), everything was oiled afterwards, and the 3rd was examined last December. (omission)

Domestic production dominated made of the foreign country in this examination, and loading Marvel of Seiko came in 1st place especially with the bad-mark system by a wonderful grade of 118 points.

Three time the 1st-each examination result standings
Test outcome after resolution is oiled after use in December, 1962 of the third times of examination result when buying it in the 1st May, 1961 for 1 and a half years October, 1962 of the second times of examination result

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Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: June 19th, 2009, 6:51 pm

April 1st, 2012, 2:39 am #9

and Seiko won it 3 times. I wonder if this was in preparation for the Observatory trials?

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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

April 1st, 2012, 4:59 am #10

This AM, I had also been looking for some information on my system about the Marvel undergoing some competitions [Marvel is "predecessor" of the Lord Marvel as Seiko's highest quality product from 1956 to the intro of Lord Marvel. Basically, the 21j variety of Marvel had 2 more jewels added & was relabeled "Lord Marvel"]...

I finally found it now that I've gotten back on the system for a little while (had to do some backups of various reports & other files I just got)!!

"In 1957, it [Marvel] was also the first Japanese watch to win the men's wristwatch division of a contest held by the Japan branch of the American Horological Society, surpassing non-Japanese models such as the Omega. The Marvel lived up to its name and helped earn Japanese timepieces a reputation for excellence that resounded all over the world, even as far as Switzerland."

Also regarding the design changes in Marvel (from it's predecessor, the Super), "The results were shown clearly in a study sponsored by the Ministry of International Trade and Industry that compared the quality of Japanese watches. In 1957, the Marvel took some seven of the top ten places, including the top five. In 1958, it managed to take the top nine places."

So, there you have some info on both:

1. Seiko vs. Swiss
2. Seiko Marvel vs. other Japanese products of the time period.

Ultimately, Seiko did participate in the Swiss competitions in '60s ... IIRC it started with sending in Crystal Chronometer clocks in the +/- 1963 timeframe, then followed by mechanical watches. However, most of those competition models were NOT "consumer models", so quite little data from those competitions would apply to what you want to know [comparative quality levels of the 5x, 6x, & 7x calibre families from Seiko, particularly the hand-wind members of the families].

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Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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