The Arizona Minutemen

Prime Z
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Joined: November 16th, 1999, 6:15 am

April 5th, 2005, 10:59 am #1

Are they having any success in stopping those pesky half starved to death, evil illegal immigrants?
Will they succeed in their efforts to prevent an invasion of the mainland by hordes of wetbacks?
Has Tarry joined their ranks already?
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Joined: September 28th, 2000, 1:38 am

April 5th, 2005, 2:59 pm #2

I have been seriously considering joining the Minutemen. I did join the Save Our State Forums that are linked from the www.minutemanproject.org main page. There wasn't quite enough information on their website for me to judge whether they were legitimate or not, so I stayed away. Now I wish I had gone down there. And I may still do it.
A lady from Guatemala found the board and started posting about how bad it is in her country with the Salvatruchas and all the shootings and gang activity. She posted in a thread entitled "all of you are right!!!! all of you are in the correct position". I was looking at a translation of her local newpaper, and they had 5 people killed by gangs just yesterday. It must be horrible to live in the middle of all that.

I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.
- Ronald Reagan
I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.
- Ronald Reagan
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oneloudcrow
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Joined: April 5th, 2005, 9:53 pm

April 5th, 2005, 4:00 pm #3

I don't know a whole lot about the minuteman project, but I do know a lot about the conditions around the world that lead to the immigration that we have.
There are political and violent conditions, wars and such, but mainly there are economic factors, that people can not make a living off of the land or from the sweatshops, and there is an understanding, even among the least educated, that these jobs and such are linked to the US, and that in the US you can get even more.
Now, you all seem to have a good understanding of capitalism, and even imperialism. You know that the point of a system like capitalism is that you're not going to have everyone fed and housed and such. So you're going to have desperate people, that's the very nature of this system. So, therefor, this kind of immigration is linked up to our way of life here.

Its also linked up in the economy of the US. Just look at the food you buy (assuming you don't grow your own or something). This is mainly picked by illegal immigrants, and the whole process is set up to make use of people in this way, if they created formal jobs of picking fruit and only used "legal" people, they would have to pay them much more, and in turn the whole price of food would have to be restructured (or else the market would shift to food from other countries that is cheaper - which would drastically affect the economy here).
Not that long ago (through the 80s), people from Mexico were allowed travel across the border to pick crops and such, and then returned to Mexico. This was actually part of a treaty with the US and Mexico because of the recognition that California, Texas and some of the other states were won by the US in the War, Mexicans were suppose to be allowed to traverse there.
For my part, I have seen many things from the illegal side (although I'm legal myself). I once met a man in Mexico who had lived in the US for forty years, was working at a restaurant in California, when a customer asked him if he had any papers on him. When he said no the customer had him deported to Mexico. A) he was originally from Ecuador, not Mexico, but they only take immigrants across the border and leave them there, and B) He had lived in the US since he was a baby. He didn't know any other country. He didn't even speak Spanish. And yes, he was making plans to get back into the US, to be back with his family and the only home he had known.
And think about this mentality, where people are doing things like shooting immigrants and poisoning water to teach them a lesson. That's just @#%$ up.

That women you linked to is very revealing in this mentality. First, she coming across from a very racist stand (yes, Latinos can be racist to each other). She talks about how she's properly Spanish ((hello, the Spanish immigrated to Guatemala and conquered everyone, that's why you're Spanish)) and these other elements are Indios (which I thought were the native population), and just look at how she's talking about people, to her, yes, these things probably seem exactly like that, but no section of people is monolithic, and she's using particularly racist terminology to describe people.
Anyway, I guess I had a lot to say on this issue. I hope this doesn't qualify as a rant.
OneLoudCrow "How do you handle that contradiction -- between mobilizing people around what you understand to be true, while at the same time having a critical attitude and being open to the understanding that you may not be right about this or that particular, or even about big questions?." - Bob Avakian www.bobavakian.net/
"How do you handle that contradiction -- between mobilizing people around what you understand to be true, while at the same time having a critical attitude and being open to the understanding that you may not be right about this or that particular, or even about big questions?." - Bob Avakian www.bobavakian.net/
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Prime Z
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Joined: November 16th, 1999, 6:15 am

April 5th, 2005, 4:16 pm #4

I have mixed feelings on this issue.
On one side I feel shame that we (Mexico) haven't been able to put our act together as we should, to avoid having our marginalized people driven by desperation and hunger for success to migrate to a foreign country.
I feel that the people are in their right to defend their borders and homes, for example, I wouldn't like any neighbor to come without permission into my home. And as long as they don't harm the illegals (without just cause such as legitimate defense) I don't have a problem with it. Although from a legal stand point, they could have a problem if they start usurping functions that are reserved for a legal branch of their government, in this case, border protection.
Will they succeed? So far the US Border Patrol is complaining that they are tripping over the border sensors and causing false alarms.
But the question is, are all of those volunteers willing to do this kind of work on a more permanent basis?
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Joined: September 28th, 2000, 1:38 am

April 5th, 2005, 5:26 pm #5

I did catch the racism in the lady's post. She was of Spanish descent and the bad guys all had Indian blood in them, something like that. I guess that's standard practice in other places - the Japanese look down on the Koreans, etc. I don't look down on anyone because I figure we're all Homo Sapiens. Except maybe for the Irish.
I think the worker program you're talking about was the "braseros" program. I hadn't heard that it had anything to do with a treaty about the "right to traverse." I do know that back in the late 1950s we had some people we called "migrant workers" who would follow the crop harvests, picking crops until they were done and then moving on to the next state. They were Mexicans, and they stayed in some buildings we had built for them. The buildings didn't have electricity or insulation but they were solidly constructed. I remember using them to store different equipment well into the 1970s. Anyway, for some reason the migrants didn't come back, or weren't asked to return. We had a field where we grew string beans and they had to be picked by hand. It turned out that the school kids would come out and pick the beans to make money to buy school clothes. And there were adults who would come out and pick, too. If you worked hard you could actually make some decent money for that time in history. So, I love our President dearly, but he's just flat wrong when he says there are jobs that Americans "won't do."
Another guy on that Save Our State board wrote an email to this college kid who had written an anti-Minutemen article. The email explains a lot about what illegal immigrants have been doing to our country.
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my letter to Mr. Matori.....
AWESOME piece of ignorance-in-action, Mr. Matori. It is clear that you don't understand "ripple effect" in the labor market. It is also clear that you don't know that illegals constitute 25-30% of our prison/jail population and only about 3.5% of our population. You apparently also are unaware that 30%+ of these illegals are on the public dole, mostly using stolen identities and social security numbers to achieve same. You apparently don't read much or you'd realize that we're losing ER after ER because they can't afford to keep the doors open because of the cost of taking care of people who won't pay their bills, 1/2 of whom are illegals although, as noted, they're only @ 3.5% of the population. You're also apparently unaware that these people make up 60-80% of the members of the nation's most violent hispanic street gangs. On the same "ignorance" topic, It is abundantly clear that you have little actual knowledge of the Minuteman Project or you'd know that there are no "assault weapons" in use down there other than those carried by the border patrol and smugglers. You'd also know that these are not "trailer park people" from Arizona but rather citizens from all over the nation, a large percentage of whom are or were peace officers.
Mr. Matori, I realize that you're a snot-nosed, propellor-headed college kid with no real-world experiences who, for some reason, think you know all the answers.
In reality, you're not even close to the truth here. Your arrogance is exceeded only buy you ignorance in this particular case (or is it the other way around?). Dan Rather and/or the NY Times notwithstanding, it is a good practice to learn the facts of those topics of which you write BEFORE writing about them. That way you'll suffer fewer embarassments in the future. If your column was intended as humor it failed, unless you consider people who are informed on these topics laughing at your ignorance "humorous".
(signature)
Of course his email would have been 100% better if he hadn't mistyped - "Your arrogance is exceeded only buy you ignorance..."
The policy of the Minuteman Project is that the members are not allowed to interact with any illegals coming across the border. They stand back and let them go by, while reporting their location to the Border Patrol. If they are attacked, they can defend themselves. What would worry me more than anything would be if someone in Mexico took a shot at one of them, and they fired back and killed him. That American bullet entering Mexico could do more damage than anyone could imagine.
The way I look at this, it's much more than keeping out Mexican citizens. There are many other people besides Mexicans coming across the border. The Salvatruchas from Guatemala are bad, but the ones I really worry about are people from the Middle East carrying contagious diseases and bomb components. Just below them are the people smuggling tons and tons of cocaine and heroin. There are too many reasons to close the borders and not enough reasons to keep them open.

I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.
- Ronald Reagan
I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.
- Ronald Reagan
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USAF Prime
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Joined: November 25th, 2002, 6:25 am

April 5th, 2005, 6:36 pm #6

My feelings are mixed also in a way.
Illegals should go back to where they are from immediately.
however if they take the time and go through the proper procedures to come here, then I have no problem with them coming here
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Prime Z
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Joined: November 16th, 1999, 6:15 am

April 5th, 2005, 8:54 pm #7

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however if they take the time and go through the proper procedures to come here, then I have no problem with them coming here
Then they wouldn't be illegals in the first place, would they? They would be legal migrants.
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USAF Prime
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Joined: November 25th, 2002, 6:25 am

April 5th, 2005, 9:17 pm #8

exactly, but most probably are either impatiant or just don't know where to go to get the paperwork
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oneloudcrow
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Joined: April 5th, 2005, 9:53 pm

April 5th, 2005, 9:25 pm #9

Hey I happened to find this blog account on the minutemen:
www.lawriterscollective.blogspot.com/
I thought it would add to the conversation.
I'll think of more later.
Oneloudcrow"How do you handle that contradiction -- between mobilizing people around what you understand to be true, while at the same time having a critical attitude and being open to the understanding that you may not be right about this or that particular, or even about big questions?." - Bob Avakian www.bobavakian.net/
"How do you handle that contradiction -- between mobilizing people around what you understand to be true, while at the same time having a critical attitude and being open to the understanding that you may not be right about this or that particular, or even about big questions?." - Bob Avakian www.bobavakian.net/
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Joined: September 28th, 2000, 1:38 am

April 6th, 2005, 12:44 am #10

Ha! Those writers want to come up and confront the MinuteMen. Probably not a good idea if they try to get physical.
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We difinately want to talk to the people who have come to confront the Minutemen and stand in solidarity with our brothers and sisters who are forced to cross the border, risking death, every day.
I "difinately" think they should have invested in a spell checker. Plus I think they need to get some writing experience, if the following is a good example of their skills:
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In times of increasing polarization in the United States - at a time when some one like Newt Gingrich has said that the country hasn't been this divided since the Civil War - where will this section of people who have no allegiance for the U.S. and know of its horrors align itself with?
Here's another blog by a radio reporter from Phoenix.

I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.
- Ronald Reagan
I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.
- Ronald Reagan
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Like
Share