Index To Castaneda Sources

This is the open forum, hosting conversations between skeptics on the legacy of Carlos Castaneda and his writings with respect to the nature of reality and our optimum
relationship to the world around us.

Index To Castaneda Sources

Joined: January 17th, 2004, 2:33 am

May 27th, 2009, 5:18 am #1

This is the missing index Castaneda never put in any of his books (joke). The terms with (?) beside them are either a stretch or were located in multiple sources.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INDEX TO SOURCES SUPPLYING MAJOR IDEAS OF CASTANEDA

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lama Anagarika Govinda's Fringe Tibetan Teachings - most from a single 1966 book:
  • The Gait of Power
  • Erasing Personal History
  • References to 'Infinity', and calling the infinite by the name 'IT'
  • 'The Spirit' - the term itself and how it's 'beyond words'or 'inconceivable'
  • Formlessness
  • The World at large is only a description
  • The Totality of Oneself (Not the term 'Nagual' but a description of it matching CC's)
  • Use of term 'Luminosity'
  • Stopping the Internal Dialog (includes detailed description of how rationality is a problem)
  • The purpose of life is to increase awareness
  • Having Sex With Your Daughter/Sister
  • 'Purifying' Women by having sex with them
  • The creative power of semen
  • Making 'holy' children
  • Using sexual energy for 'navigating'
  • Losing Self-Importance
  • Multiple worlds - a multidimensional awareness of reality (?)
  • A Bridge between the Ordinary World and Silent Knowledge
  • Extended Perception - 'divine' only means going beyond the normal range of perception
  • Detachment - the attitude of the impartial observer (?)
  • The Active Side of Infinity
  • The Sea Of Awareness
  • All Beings Are Equal
  • Four Types of Beings Associated With the Cardinal Directions (four male types and four female) (?)
  • Awareness of Death - treating every moment as if it may be your last
  • Death of the Ego and Death Of One's Past Life
  • Not Getting Lost in the Infinite
  • The Fire From Within
  • Vanishing Into the Third Attention
  • The Energy Body - The Luminous Body
  • The Assemblage Point (?)
  • The Right and the Left Sides
  • The Central Axis of the Body (?)
  • Disrupting the Routines Of Life
  • Having No Desires
  • The Descent of the Spirit
  • Direct Knowledge
  • A Leap Into the Unknown
  • Stopping the World
  • An emphasis on Knowledge rather than Power
  • The Wheel Of Time
  • The Body Knows (and contains all within it)
  • Special Reference to the name 'Muni' (name given to Carol Tiggs)
  • The Mask of the Nagual
  • Reference to state of being: 'I'm Gone'
  • Intensity of Time and Experience
  • 'Hues' of Awareness
  • The concept of 'Fluidity'
  • Making Different People *See* Different Visions
  • How To Handle Power Objects (?)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brinton's Paper On Nagualism - all from a single 1894 paper:
  • The Nagual and the Tonal (as described early on in Tales of Power also are in other Mesoamerican sources)
  • The Nagual (as also referring to an actual sorcerer, first appears in Tales of Power)
  • The Tonal (as referring to the 'known self')
  • Protecting, Shocking, Shrinking, and Restoring the Tonal (as in Tales of Power)
  • 'Nagualism' as in 'secret parties of warriors' and 'lineages' (begins full-fledged in the Eagle's Gift)
  • Use of terms 'Man of Knowledge'and 'Seer' (?)
  • Cloud Sorcery (A Separate Reality and Fire From Within)
  • Making a Stick Seem Like a Living Animal (Ixtlan)
  • Sorcerers Transforming into Animals (?)
  • Use of Peyote and other Power Plants (?)
  • Use of Insects While Making Hallucinogenic Potions (CC's first book)
  • Sorcerers Flying Great Distances (CC's first book)
  • Sorcerers Practicing Remote Viewing
  • Conjuring With Smoke (CC says 'don Juan' often 'smoked him')
  • Sorcerers Causing People To Be Ill (CC claimed Julian did this)
  • Placing Bewitched Objects for Victim to Step On (CC has dJ speak of using corn kernels for this)
  • There Is Power In The Bones Of A Man of Knowledge (CC has dj say this very thing)
  • Sorcerers called 'Masters of the Towns' (Fire From Within, CC says Genaro 'Master of Awareness' and Silvio 'Master of Intent')
  • Girl turns into a Bird and perches on the roof of a house (CC's first book, similar thing happens)
  • Sorcerers making themselves Invisible (CC has Genaro vanish more than once)
  • Story of Sorcerers attacking the Conquerors with Confidence and Being Slaughtered (like the story of Calixto Muni)
  • '15 chosen ones' (the number CC says are in a 'warrior party')
  • The 'Ghost Dance of the tiger' and the dance of 'Chac-Mool' (CC called some of his people 'Chacmools')
  • A High Position Given To Women Sorcerers (CC has 'don Juan' say this, and claimed this for years of his own group)
  • Being In Two Places At Once (happens in Tales of Power, Power of Silence, and Fire From Within, Tiggs' excuse)
  • Sorceress Doesn't Die But Leaves the World Instead (as in Eagle's Gift and Fire From Within)
  • A Warrior's Love Is the Earth - Worship of the Earth (?)
  • The Number 3 is a Sacred Number (?)
  • Sorcerers Transform Into Balls Of Fire (Fire From Within, Genaro shows dreaming body is best as a ball of light)
  • Stripping Nude before turning into Animal ('don Juan' has Carlos do this before becoming a worm)
  • Esoteric doctrines related to the Reproductive Powers (Sexual Energy) (?)
  • Nine Upper and Nine Under Worlds (dJ says the 'old sorcerers' believed in upper and under worlds)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hopi Teachings reported by Frank Waters - all from a single 1963 book:
  • 'A strange system, being revealed for the first time'
  • All specialized names italicized as in Castaneda's books
  • A style both documentary and artistic at once (like Castaneda's)
  • Precisely recorded dialog was subsequently translated into English
  • No fees or payments were accepted by informants
  • Informants died and are no longer available
  • Teachings Were Kept Secret For Generations (?)
  • 'Core' Beliefs expressed by 'Abstract' Rituals (corresponds to 'Abstract Core')
  • Use of phrase 'the Unknown'
  • Use of phrase: 'fortuitous chance'
  • Warning that the Teachings Do Not Conform to Rational Conceptualizations (?)
  • No proof, no documentation, refers to Magical Events
  • A Male/Female Pair of First Beings (Nagual Man and Nagual Woman)
  • Creator's Universe, Human Universe, and Seven Universes to Come (Eagle, Organic band, and seven inorganic bands)
  • Additional beings: Four male types and four female types (?)
  • The Earth Is A Living Being
  • An 'Axis' through the Body with 'vibratory centers' (fundamental premise of Tensegrity)
  • Important Center at Solar Plexus (corresponding with 'Will)
  • Important center at Crown of Head
  • The 'First People' didn't get sick (Carlos said men of knowledge do not get sick)
  • Use of the term 'seer' (?)
  • Use of words and phrases: "the caretaker", "the guardian", "the protector" (?)
  • A 'Great Eagle' old as time gives people permission to live in the world
  • Old Indian Examines Museum Pieces and tells true functions (Castaneda told a similar tale of 'Don Juan')
  • Man Of Power Becomes A Tree
  • Many Stories of 'Waiting For Omens'
  • 'Kachinas' similar to Castaneda's 'Allies' - often take human form as allies did (?)
  • Men Are Equal to Plants (?)
  • Asking Permission to Use Plants (?)
  • Men Affected By Energy From Stars
  • Significance of 'the first rays of the rising sun' falling on object (an omen for Castaneda in Ixtlan)
  • Special mission 'To close the Door' (Castaneda used this phrase and said it was his mission too)
  • Story of a Talking Deer ('don Juan' told a similar story)
  • Significance of Seven Stars of Pleiades and Nine Stars of Corona
  • Story of Man Turning Into A Bird (?)
  • A Man Makes A Sound Heard At Enormous Distance (Genaro guides Carlos with a sound)
  • 'Mystery Plays' (corresponds to 'Sorcery Theatre')
  • The World As An Endless Mystery (this is how Waters portrays it)
  • Sex is for Procreation
  • Warriors who are perfect may go to the other world
  • Ritual purpose of a 'Man Dressed As A Woman'
  • Rite of 'recaptitulation' for 'purification' - frequent use of word 'recapitulation' used to mean reviewing the past
  • 'Jump of Death' where performers leap from poles and swing out over a cliff (The Jump from the Cliff?)
  • Ceremony: Four men known as 'voladores' or 'fliers' (ancient Aztec pole ceremony)
  • Seven Years Of Celibacy (related to the voladores ritual)
  • Old Indian Man 'Points With His Chin'
  • Repeated use of the word 'indulgence' meaning to overdo something
  • Burying animals 'head to the west'
  • Vomiting After Coming In Contact With Strange Forces (Hopi rattlesnakes, Castaneda allies)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Margaret Castaneda says CC's first 'contact' was on the Cahuilla reservation near Palm Springs.
Gloria Garvin said Carlos used an 'Indian Library' near Palm Springs.
Cahuilla territory IS the 'Sonoran Desert', and it's only about 3 hours from LA.

A HANDFUL OF CALIFORNIA INDIAN ANTHROPOLOGY BOOKS FROM A PALM SPRINGS 'INDIAN LIBRARY' - in 3-4 days of reading I found:
  • Story of Hunter about to Shoot Magical Deer but Realizes It's Wrong (mirrors CC's 'albino falcon' story)
  • Thanking Plants - Apologizing For Killing Them
  • Using the Right Ritual for Interacting With a Certain Plant
  • The Implements of Shamans had Powers as if Alive ('Don Juan' behaved as if his did)
  • 'Prayer Seats' in the Hills that had 'Power' (Castaneda's 'power spots')
  • Making Brooms of Branches to Sweep 'prayer seats' clean ('don Juan' does this same thing)
  • Visiting 'Prayer Seats' in Dreaming ('don Juan' tells CC to do the same)
  • Use of Datura to Travel to Other Worlds (CC's first paper was on datura for a 'California Ethnography' class)
  • Use of Datura for Divination (CC's first book)
  • The Nature of Datura Said to be 'For Power and Attainment of Desire'
  • The Cahuilla made ointments and pastes out of datura (So did 'don Juan')
  • Most Commonly Used Part of Datura was the Root ('don Juan' said power is conquered through the root)
  • Common belief that 'Power' is Sentient, has Will, and Causes Things to Happen
  • Each thing Possesses a Certain amount of 'Power' and Struggles to get More
  • 'Power' is Often Acquired via Dreaming
  • 'Power' must be used at Proper Times and Places using Set Procedures
  • Shamans Tried to Acquire 'Power' from as many 'Guardian Spirits' as possible (Castaneda's allies)
  • Very Advanced Age Without Senility Considered an Indication of Greater Power
  • Common Belief in 'soul loss' and 'battles for the soul'(CC's first book) (?)
  • Launching Magical Missiles Into an Enemy's Body (CC's first book)
  • 'Kitdongwe's' which if Pursued 'jump way off like flying' (la Catalina does this to CC)
  • The Concept of 'Seeing' (Mostly Connected with Healing) (?)
  • Power rituals involving 'burying people' ('dJ does this and also builds 'earth coffins' for this)
  • Repeating Actions or Sacred Incantations Three times (CC has DJ doing this in early books)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOME SIGNIFICANT HITS FROM DE-MILLE'S ALLEGLOSSARY - most from anthropological works or people CC knew):
  • 'Arm Sweeping' for locating something (passage from book CC reviewed in 1962 class corresponds to A Separate Reality)
  • Using Cold Water Dunkings as Protection (done all through a Separate Reality, also from a book CC reviewed in 1962 class)
  • The Head Is What Turns into a Crow (CC's description mirrors colleague Michael Harner's earlier drawing)
  • Covering novices with leaves and branches ('don Juan' copies procedures from earlier Eliade book)
  • Shaman Carrying His Chair On His Back ('Pablito' copies earlier passage from Carlos' friend Barbara Myerhoff)
  • The concept of 'Completeness' (CC's Second Ring uses concept from a Peter Furst 1970 UCLA lecture)
  • Talking To Coyote (Ixtlan uses passage similar to book reviewed in CC's 1962 Anthropology course)
  • Being Taught While Dead (CC's 1968 book uses concept from the same passage as 'Talking Coyotes')
  • Distant Dog Barking in the mountains (Tales of Power echoes passage from earlier Wasson book)
  • The Crack Between the Worlds (in books by both Eliade and Wasson before used by Castaneda)
  • Locating Stolen Property Using Datura (first book duplicates passage from Hill 1939)
  • 'Doing' (Ixtlan 1972 has 'don Juan' using this 1970 concept from CC's professor Garfinkel)
  • Meeting Your Double Is Death (Tales of Power 1974 includes 1971 idea of Otto Rank, a friend of Anais Nin whom CC knew)
  • Gold Dust Of Knowledge (Tales of Power 1974 uses Eliade idea from 1964)
  • People Look Like 'Luminous Eggs' With 'Bristles' (Atkinson 1909, Castaneda 1971)
  • The Four Enemies of a Man of Knowledge (Opler 1941, Castaneda 1968)
  • At this moment you are surrounded by eternity (Wittgenstein, Tractatus)
  • Insisting on 'explaining everything' (also Wittgenstein, Tractatus)
  • Special 'fighting form' (Peter Furst from informant Ramon Medina, 1965, Castaneda knew both men)
  • Controlled Folly (same concept as CC's professor Garfinkel's 'Ethnomethodological Indifference')
  • Do Not Reveal Information About the Protector (1963 Michael Harner CC's colleague, CC 1968)
  • Penetrating a Victim With A Magical Projectile (1963 Michael Harner CC's colleague, CC 1968)
  • Sucking Out A Magical Projectile, Failure results In Death (1963 Michael Harner CC's colleague, CC 1968)
  • Sending Magical Bird to House of Victim, the Shaman Must Kill It (1963 Michael Harner CC's colleague, CC 1968)
  • Bewitching to Steal Victim's Soul (1963 Michael Harner CC's colleague, CC 1968) (?)
  • Discussion of 'Where God Is' (Re: Wasson's mushrooms 1957, Re: CC's Mescalito 1968)
  • Death Is To One's Left (1965 Peter Furst CC's colleague, CC's 1972 Ixtlan)
  • Sorcerer Sewing Up Lizard's Eyes and Mouth (Rowe 1946, Castaneda 1968)
  • Description of Playing a 'Spirit Catcher' (1965 Furst, CC's friend Myerhoff 1968, CC 1971)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Margaret Castaneda's personal opinion:
"It is possible that Carlos's first book, and presumably those that followed, was a pastiche of fact and imagination, a collection of information gleaned from the deserts of Arizona, California, and Mexico as well as from the libraries of UCLA, and then assembled in a readable story form."

Margaret, it's much more than 'possible'; it's virtually certain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So here's a short list of primary CC sources:
  • Lama Govinda's Fringe Tibetan Buddhism
  • Brinton's Paper On 'Nagualism'
  • Frank Waters Book of the Hopi
  • California Indian Anthropology Texts - especially those known to have been reviewed by CC
  • Wasson's works on Mushrooms
  • Eliade's works on Shamanism
  • Furst's works and lectures on Shamanism
  • Harner's works and lectures on Shamanism
  • Myerhoff's works on Shamanism and her contacts with Ramon Medina
  • UCLA Professor Garfinkel
  • Wittgenstein
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Others could have been of major significance, such as Otto Rank, Anais Nin, Alan Watts, and G.I. Gurdjieff, but just taking the short list above one can account for a significant percentage of Castaneda's major ideas.

Not every Castaneda idea that came from each of these people is listed above, but the majority are. For example, Harner also reported entities very similar to 'fliers' many years before CC mentioned them. As another example, Anais Nin was heavily into 'reviewing the events of her life' and may well have been responsible for CC's latter day emphasis on 'recapitulation' (Like 'Tensegrity', CC never mentioned formal 'Recapitulating' in the first 20 years of his alleged adventures.) Also, it would not surprise me to find that CC used several ideas from Alan Watts, because CC liked Watts (he claimed that he went to visit Watts, and Govinda LIVED with Watts when Govinda moved to America).

I created this list hastily, so there's a lot I'm leaving out. BUT THIS SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO MAKE IT PLAIN.
Last edited by Talking Brujo Dog on May 27th, 2009, 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 3rd, 2003, 3:58 pm

May 27th, 2009, 8:07 am #2

Like 'Tensegrity', CC never mentioned formal 'Recapitulating' in the first 20 years of his alleged adventures.
(A) 'Tensegrity': TTodJ (1968) #11
That same day in the early evening don Juan took me into the hills around his house. There he gave me long and detailed instructions on specific fighting procedures. At one moment in the course of repeating certain prescribed steps I found myself alone.
(B) formal 'Recapitulating': In radio interview with Roszak (recorded 1968, broadcast KPFA Jan 69) Castaneda said
one of the items of the learning process is a recapitulation of whatever you experience, in order to remember everything that happened
Quote
Like
Share

Guest
Guest

May 27th, 2009, 1:53 pm #3

if shorty had been upfront and said: "ok guys, here's what i'm going to do,
i'm going to take the best shit i can find and repackage it all for you to make
it really simple. i'm going to pull out all the stuff that makes some sense and
make it into a story you can follow and be entertained at the same time, now
mind ya, it's all a fabrication BUT it seems to make some sense. now see at
the same time i got to bullshit my teachers into believing that i really did have
a secret teacher (sorcerer) {so they too would be amazed} so i could make
lots of money selling these made-up books then we all would understand it, yes?
but see if i did all that, no one would believe me. so i did it my way, and the
world loves a loser, don't they? lol!
Quote
Share

Joined: December 3rd, 2003, 3:58 pm

May 27th, 2009, 2:43 pm #4

so i did it my way,
Yes, according to Barbara Myerhoff he did it his way:
I remember telling him it was pointless to put in that awful "Structural Analysis." And the term "sorcerer", which I felt he misused. And "Yaqui", for which there seemed no cultural justification. I didn't like the name "don Juan", which I thought was too much like the literary prototype and therefore confusing. Since it was only a pseudonym, he could easily have changed it. I wanted him to call the book A Path with Heart, and leave out "sorcerer" and "Yaqui" altogether. We argued endlessly about those things, but he went ahead and did everything his own way.
(de Mille 1980). Myerhoff continues,
I think history has proved my criticisms right.
Well maybe: he would surely have been more accepted in the anthropological community if he'd done things her way. Does that mean her criticisms were right? "Sorcerer" is probably the best translation for brujo. Why Castaneda insisted on "Yaqui" is an interesting question. From Myerhoff it sounds like it was just plain stubbornness. I suppose that is possible, perhaps even plausible, but my opinion is that it was more likely simply his personal mark of respect to his half Yaqui teacher.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 17th, 2004, 2:33 am

May 27th, 2009, 4:41 pm #5

ra6as quotes the first book:
>"That same day in the early evening don Juan took me into the hills around his house. There he gave me long and detailed instructions on specific fighting procedures. At one moment in the course of repeating certain prescribed steps I found myself alone."

Carlos himself told us that he never described 'Magical Passes' in his work until they went public in the 90's, and on more than one occasion Carlos claimed the reason was that 'don Juan' had instructed him not to mention them. Actually, when I was a believer I found CC's stance on this to be very strange, since I had compiled a large list of places in his works where he appears to be describing movements very much like a 'pass'. But Carlos himself held otherwise. You seem to be referring to 'don Juan' teaching Carlos 'fighting forms', which is one of the items in my index. Specifically:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighting Position

"Against the sorcerer the Huichol shaman also assumes a special - and highly secret - defensive position ... whose details my informant would not reveal." (Furst 1965, informant was Ramon Medina)

"He then gave me precise instructions about a 'fighting form', a specific bodily position ... to be used if I was attacked." (Castaneda, 1968)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Peter Furst described such a 'secret fighting position' in print 3 years before Carlos did. Notice how the information came from a Shaman known both to Furst and to Barbara Myerhoff, CC's friend and colleague. CC was introduced to Medina by Myerhoff, and I think CC copied that idea from Medina and attributed it to 'don Juan'. CC did this constantly with virtually any idea he encountered that appealed to him.


ra6as quotes a radio interview:
>"one of the items of the learning process is a recapitulation of whatever you experience, in order to remember everything that happened"

Here you're confusing the formal process of 'recapitulation' with how 'don Juan' frequently has Carlos 'recapitulate' previous series of events TO HIM. That conversational form of 'recapitulation' is described more than once in the early books, and Carlos used the word 'recapitulation' in both ways. He also used the word 'recapitulation' to describe how 'don Juan' recounted all the steps of his teachings back to Carlos as part of the learning process (Tales of Power - the 'Sorcerer's Explanation). Note that Frank Waters also frequently uses the word 'recapitulation' in the second sense, in the sense of recounting the events of a series or a learning process, in his 1963 book on the Hopi, which is also part of my index. But the actual process of sitting in an enclosed space by oneself breathing in a specific way as one reclaims 'the energy' of the events of one's life - 'recapitulation' in that sense is not described until the Eagle's Gift in 1981.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 17th, 2004, 2:33 am

May 28th, 2009, 5:30 am #6

To be fair about the matter of whether Carlos mentioned magical passes in his early books, his response on that topic was slightly contradictory and seemed to depend on what mood he was in when asked about it. Sometimes he'd say he didn't mention them because 'don Juan' asked him not to, and sometimes he'd say "I did mention them! I wrote about how don Juan 'cracked his joints'!"

My observation is that Carlos did frequently describe 'don Juan' making 'strange magical movements' in his books, but he did that after being told by other anthropologists how some shamans (like Ramon Medina) had 'secret movements'. Going strictly by evidence, CC did not create large collections of full-blown 'magical passes' until after studying under Howard Lee (his kung fu teacher in the 80's). One piece of evidence further supporting that position is a note Greg and Gabi found in the trash before Cleargreen came out with any movements: a reminder to begin working on "sorcery kung fu".
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 17th, 2004, 2:33 am

May 29th, 2009, 6:17 am #7

Something left out of the index.

Another example of Carlos handily borrowing a striking idea from his colleagues occurred when after both Barbara Myerhoff and Peter Furst reported witnessing Ramon Medina's 'waterfall crossing show', a 'strikingly similar' account was later presented by Carlos with the waterfall crossing act being performed by 'don Genaro', now embellished with impossible leaps utilizing invisible magical tentacles.

It is another perfect example of CC's ever-present pattern:

1) borrow an appealing idea from another source
2) change it as needed to fit his story line and personal philosophy
3) embellish the idea to be more magical and fantastic

So when Carlos insists 'I invented nothing', it's half true. He didn't exactly. And yet ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a more complete account of that story:

In 1966, Barbara Myerhoff and Peter Furst went to Guadalajara. On one excursion into the country with several Huichol adults and children they both witnessed the following actions of Ramon Medina (who was then preparing to become a Huichol shaman). Barbara Myerhoff's report:

"Ramon led us to a steep barranca, cut by a rapid waterfall cascading perhaps a thousand feet over jagged, slippery rocks. At the edge of the fall Ramon removed his sandals and told us that this was a special place for shamans. We watched in astonishment as he proceeded to leap across the waterfall, from rock to rock, pausing frequently, his body bent forward, his arms spread out, his head thrown back, entirely birdlike, poised motionlessly on one foot. He disappeared, reemerged, leaped about, and finally achieved the other side. We outsiders were terrified and puzzled, but none of the Huichols seemed at all worried."

"Next day Ramon explained that a shaman must keep his balance while crossing the narrow bridge to the other world, so that he will not fall into the abyss and be eaten by terrible animals."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Barbara came back to UCLA, she told her friend and colleague Carlos Castaneda about this experience (mistake). Carlos said "Oh, that's just like don Genaro."

In the spring of 1970, Peter Furst organized a lecture series at UCLA that included describing his own eye-witness account of this same 1966 event. Carlos asked to also participate and in the same series gave a lecture on don Genaro doing his more magical version, and then he put that version in 'A Separate Reality' in 1971. Yet curiously, Carlos dated his own account in 'A Separate Reality' as having occurred in 1968...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a Sustained Action article giving an even more complete account, including DeMille's interview with Barbara Myerhoff:
http://sustainedaction.or...ons/conjuring_brujos.htm

The accompanying picture of Ramon crossing the waterfall:
http://sustainedaction.or...dina_silva_waterfall.htm
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 25th, 2008, 7:33 pm

May 29th, 2009, 8:13 pm #8

(A) 'Tensegrity': TTodJ (1968) #11
That same day in the early evening don Juan took me into the hills around his house. There he gave me long and detailed instructions on specific fighting procedures. At one moment in the course of repeating certain prescribed steps I found myself alone.
I didn't realise tensegrity was fighting forms.
Are you sure they are?
Coz this smacks of another "egyptology professor friend" style affair.

I am beginning to wonder if there is any length that a 'loop' won't go to in order to support his mania.

Anyway...
(C) 'Bone cracking' : MP (1998)
I have shown you various magical passes, all along, and you have always taken them to be my delight in cracking my joints.
Nice list TBD, but I doubt that any amount of evidence could turn some of the more committed 'cakes into rational beings.
I mean if they can read a whole series of books like his, entertaining though they are, and not realise they are being had, there's little hope that another range of literature is gonna bring about any 'realisation'.

More likely outcome would be for them to scratch around looking for crumbs in the texts, that might possibly give them even the slightest justification for their confusion.


(C2) 'Magical Passes' : MP (1998)
Don Juan Matus taught me everything he knew about the sorcerers of his lineage. He stated, asserted, affirmed, explained to me every nuance of his knowledge. Therefore everything I say about the magical passes is a direct result of his instruction.
(D) 'ra6' : next post (2009)
(1) Tensegrity comes mainly from Howard Lee
Someone's telling porkies. And why quote from a 1968 text, then claim HYL involvement, when Castaneda never met the man until 1974?
This has all the trappings of egyptian greenhouses again.

Anyway, according to Castaneda, the magical passes came about as involuntary movements brought to 'sorcerers' in the 'second attention' over the past 10,000 years or so. Clearly, that's ridiculous...but how is it martial arts?
Last edited by Merlin Dyfed on May 29th, 2009, 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 3rd, 2003, 3:58 pm

May 29th, 2009, 8:34 pm #9

I didn't realise tensegrity was fighting forms.
Are you sure they are?
Surely they are fighting forms, but I'm open to having my mind changed.

(1) Tensegrity comes mainly from Howard Lee

(2) according to HYL's website, "Someone had told him [Carlos] that there was some guy in L.A. teaching Kung Fu who talked like Don Juan, for whatever that's worth (laughing). He mainly studied martial arts with me" ( http://www.thelightoflife...terviews_eng/dimitri.php )

(3) Carlos repackaged it as "sorcery kung fu"

(4) therefore tensegrity is basically martial, perhaps with other things thrown in
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 17th, 2004, 2:33 am

May 30th, 2009, 2:32 am #10

ra6as:
>Surely they are fighting forms, but I'm open to having my mind changed.
(1) Tensegrity comes mainly from Howard Lee
(2) according to HYL's website, "Someone had told him [Carlos] that there was some guy in L.A. teaching Kung Fu who talked like Don Juan, for whatever that's worth (laughing). He mainly studied martial arts with me" ( http://www.thelightoflife...terviews_eng/dimitri.php )
(3) Carlos repackaged it as "sorcery kung fu"
(4) therefore tensegrity is basically martial, perhaps with other things thrown in

I learned hundreds of the movements and practiced them for years. I was taught many series of 'passes' directly by Carlos and his inner circle, and my opinion is that your number 4 is backwards. I would say Tensegrity was mostly 'other things', with an occasional martial sequence thrown in. That might seem unintuitive at first, but it really isn't. Howard does different kinds of movements besides 'kung fu'. And just because Carlos used Howard for 'inspiration' (borrowed from him, as usual), do not forget that 'borrowing' is only the first step in the ever-present pattern of CC. Again, the 3 main steps are:

1) borrow some ideas he likes
2) change those ideas to fit his storyline and philosophy better
3) exagerrate them to be more magical

So, CC no doubt used many raw 'components' of martial sequences (and other sequences) from Howard, but you can bet that he also modified them and rearranged them to suit himself, improvised related movement sequences himself, made up stories about the movement sequences, etc.

Also, just because he got the ideas and many of the raw components directly from Howard, that doesn't mean he didn't also do his usual eclectic mix and throw in any other movements he liked. His usual mode of operation - if applied here - would be to mix movement components from Howard with Chi Gong, Karate, Tai Chi, Tibetan exercises, and any other damn thing that appealed to him, always being careful in how he put sequences together with an eye both toward supporting his new 'storylines' for each movement sequence AND toward disguising the actual sources of the component sequences.

You can never 'think simple' when tracking CC. The story is almost always more complex, because of how he constantly improvised based on what was going on, for decades, and how he eclectically mixed the elements of different systems.
Quote
Like
Share